Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[Carolina]

***SPOILER***

Gandalf being careworn...

Elrond confirms this at Rivendell that the quest "shall be his great task, and maybe the end of his labors."

Heavy burden indeed.

[Restorer]

As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.

Some of the more obscure writings of Tokien give more profound reasons for the Elves bailing out of Middle Earth.

Over millennia the fire of their “souls,” which are inherently free of evil, begin to cause a “fading” of their bodies, which are inevitably tainted with the evil introduced into all matter by Melkor, the master of Sauron. All of Middle Earth was, in a sense, the “Ring” of Melkor. Even after his destruction the matter of Middle Earth did not fit very well with the souls of the Elves, which led to a growing disquiet and desire to escape to Aman, the only place they could live at peace.

[Romestamo]

Thanks for the info. I haven't worked my way up to Morgoth's Ring yet (yet, mind you).

[Restorer]

The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun).

There may be a deeper meaning. In some of Tolkien’s more obscure (later) works, the sun is a female Maiar, Anor, who is given by Varda a light (secret fire?) direct from Iluvatar that is uncontaminated by Melkor’s evil. Melkor angrily attacks and rapes Anor, who flees. Perhaps the “secret fire of Anor” is the source of the power of all the Istari, who are emissaries of the Valar to assist those who are fighting Sauron.

This meaning would take the “secret fire” back to the original Music of the Ainur, a great many millennia before the Rings were made. This would tie in with the light that is seen “leaking” from around Gandalf, especially after he returns as the White. Perhaps while dead in Aman, he is given greater access to or power over the Fire.

[Romestamo]

Gandalf's description of events ("Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.") led me to believe that he did more than travel to Aman, but went beyond the circles of the Earth and was "recommissioned" in a sense by Ilúvatar himself.

[Restorer]

Good point. Gandalf, as a Maiar, is not OF Arda (the World) in the same sense that Elves and Men are. He is of an order of beings that existed before Arda and in a real sense actually made Arda. Thus the death of a Maiar can be expected to be handled differently than Elves, who go to the Halls of Mandos till they are reincarnated, or Men, who go there briefly before leaving the Circles of the World.

Your theory would be of a piece with the power, which Tolkien constantly emphasizes, of Iluvatar to introduce wild cards (miracles, if you will) outside of the normal course of event. The Destruction of Numenor and removal of Aman from Earth near the end of the Second Age is the classic example of this.

[ecurbh]

One of my favorite aspects that first arises in this chapter is the power language and words.

"I cannot read the fiery letters," said Frodo in a quavering voice.

"No," said Gandalf, "but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here."

Merely speaking of evil will empower it, and conversely, speaking of good will drive evil away. For example, there is Frodo's use of "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" on Weathertop.

[fire and forget]

Thank you for this thread. Tolkein's the greatest writer of the 20th Century in my book, and that just might be too light a praise. In Jr. HS and before, I read all of Tolkein's works over and over again and I've recently rediscovered the books with the release of the first movie. I haven't yet had time to read the thread in its entirety and I've only just discovered it, but I'd love to participate as I have time.

Amazing all the details one remembers after nearly two decades and it's been a delight rediscovering forgotten details (having now re-read all of the Lord of the Rings). I'll read Silmarillian again when time permits. I lost all interest in Fantasy before High School since none of the other writers ever created anything approaching Tolkein, notwithstanding their efforts to. Alas that Tolkein, being as we of the lesser, and later Men, did not have the longevity of the first Numenorians, or better, of the Eldar.

Warmest regards and thanks again.

[Carolina]

Merely speaking of evil will empower it...

My hair stood on end in the movie every time the ring whispered,

"Azh nazg durbatuluk..."

[Penny1]

"Azh nazg durbatuluk..."

I'm almost afraid to ask but what does that mean? Or is there any way of knowing?

Here's the full excerpt, btw, from the Council of Elrond (from the script):

Ring: Ash Nazg Durbatuluk! Ash Nazg Gimbatul! Ash Nazg Gimbatul! Ash Nazg Gimbatul!

[Carolina]

Ash Nazg Durbatuluk! Ash Nazg Gimbatul! Ash Nazg Gimbatul! Ash Nazg Gimbatul!

In Chapter 2 (oh, good, I'm on topic) Gandalf says that it's in Elvish letters but of the language of Mordor.

And then he translates it in the Common Tongue:

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thank you very much! - But this thread was the idea of many co-conspirators, not just me, who were continuing to chat as we read through the books, none of us ever at the same place in the story at the same time. "Wouldn't it be nice if we all agreed to start over so I am not talking about Lothlorien when you are still trying to get to Bree?"

And I am only happy that it has been so well received and that everyone is getting a kick out of it.

[BornOnTheFourth]

This is a fun thread! I feel like a novice sitting at the feet of masters...

[HairOfTheDog]

Me too..

[Romestamo]

'Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul' means 'One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them,' but the last line is 'ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.'

Thankfully, we aren't subjected to much of this tongue in the Lord of the Rings.

[ecurbh]

It is an excerpt from the complete poem about the rings of power:

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

[fire and forget]

Apologies applenty. Didn't realize the thread was not so far advanced. Still to Bree are we? I'm sure Gildor Inglorian would be a meet acquaintence, even if he's already encountered our the first members of the Fellowship. Or Tom Bombadil (hope I've spelled it correctly).

Thanks for the reply. Thanks for letting me into the conspiracy -g-.

[Carolina]

Thankfully, we aren't subjected to much of this tongue in the Lord of the Rings.

Elrond certainly was freaked out:

"Never before has any voice dared to utter words of that tongue in Imladris, Gandalf the Grey."

But Gandalf was unapologetic.

It's like he was saying, "Better get used to it, 'cuz if that dude Sauron wins, you're gonna hear it in every corner."

[HairOfTheDog]

I can't even read it and smile, let alone try to speak it... It does reek evil doesn't it? And the elvish language is so beautiful. Tolkien was a true poet to capture the soul of language to the point where he could create terror or beauty from the sound of the language itself, without any meaning being necessary to understand the message. And of course, he was thorough enough, that if you wanted to, you could dig deeper and understand it as well.

[Romestamo]

I pointed out to someone earlier that Sindarin, the language of the Grey-Elves, had roughly the phonological characteristics of British-Welsh, because it fit their epic history, which reads like Old-English legend.

Perhaps more interesting is Quenya, the high Elven tongue. Because its place in Middle-Earth is that of the language of knowledge and history, it is in someways very similar to Latin, such as in syntactically. It gains it truly beautiful, flowing style from a special blend of Finnish, Latin, and Greek.