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Why Conservatives Should Reject Libertarianism
National Review | Ernest van den Haag

Posted on 02/01/2002 12:30:35 PM PST by Exnihilo

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To: Exnihilo
Libertarians repudiate this insight of the Founding Fathers.

Blatantly false - we're the only ones left who embrace it.

They oppose all government

False.

and they repudiate the need for social cultivation of the social bond

False. Social cultivation does not require coercive government.

for public authority, and of legally enforced rules.

Laughably false.

They are opposed to the Constitution and to the American heritage.

Onl,y thing missing here is the third of Mark Twain's famous series that ends with "statistics." hint: lies, damn lies and...

Indeed, libertarians repudiate essential elements of civilization as it has historically developed everywhere.

Civilization does not need coercive government that violates the rights of individuals. It only needs government that protects those rights. Indeed, civilization is eroded when the State interferes with the natural interaction of men.

41 posted on 02/01/2002 1:46:24 PM PST by Doctor Doom
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To: zeugma
Isn't Van Den Haag dead? Similar to Ayn Rand, who the author also seems to believe is alive and kicking.

The reason this article seems so antiquated is that it is antiquated! I did a quick Google search, and determined that in was published in National Review on June 8, 1979. So dead people are quoted as though they are making contemporaneous statements about the current status of Libertarianism.

Of course the poster, Exnihilo, has acted in a highly deceptive manner by failing to date the article and thereby indicate that it is more than two decades old. But then I guess I'm not too surprised at his deception.

42 posted on 02/01/2002 1:46:47 PM PST by dpwiener
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To: realpatriot71
What do you think?

I think it is the way to go, and it would eliminate a good deal of the IRS, which is why it will be very hard to put in place. What I like best about it is that you pay as you go. It would also be hard to monkey around with it, as is done with the tax code now. For example, raising the tax would require a very good reason before it could be done.

43 posted on 02/01/2002 1:48:37 PM PST by Hacksaw
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To: Doctor Doom
Actually, I liked their recent articles on the war, for example, O'Sullivan's and Derbyshire's.
44 posted on 02/01/2002 1:49:22 PM PST by annalex
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To: Exnihilo
Society is denied the ability to impose or even to publicly cultivate social norms and bonds. Only individuals and private groupings of individuals can do so.

Just what the hell is this critter you call "society" BUT a private grouping of individuals?

And if they must be imposed, how the hell can they be "social norms?"

45 posted on 02/01/2002 1:49:37 PM PST by Doctor Doom
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To: kidd
I'm waiting for a Libertarian to call Ayn Rand a 'statist'. Or maybe she's a 'socialist'. Come on guys, do it for kidd.

Might not have been a statist, but from what I understand of her later days she held court like a queen.

46 posted on 02/01/2002 1:49:39 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: realpatriot71
Don't you just love how Exnihilo posts this stuff, then almost immediately disappears. I'm beginning think the guy is just an interrupter.

Exnihilo is a newby and quite likely a disruptor.

Exnihilo member since December 14th, 2001

47 posted on 02/01/2002 1:50:31 PM PST by dpwiener
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To: Virginia-American
She was also somewhat of a nympho.....not that that's always a bad thing...LOL.
48 posted on 02/01/2002 1:52:48 PM PST by wardaddy
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To: Exnihilo
This article, besides being a miasma of wrongness about libertarianism, is an unintentional indictment of modern "conservatives", who show virtually no sign of holding the sort of conservative beliefs ascribed to them by the author.

Conservatives believe that (limited) constitutional government is essential "to secure these rights"— to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Conservatives may believe this, but Compassionate Conservatives apparantly do not.

Yardstick

P.S. I challenge anyone who thinks G.W.B. has any real regard for the Constitution to find it posted anywhere at the Whitehouse website. The Constitution, you'll recall, is that thing the President swears an oathe to protect.

49 posted on 02/01/2002 1:53:03 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: Exnihilo
For the need for coercive authority arises not only from the wickedness of all, or of some, and from the infinite wish for power (palpable as these are): even among good men, even among angel, conflicts may arise that can be decided only by violence— unless there is a superior authority that can decide, and enforce its decision.

If there is "wickedness of all," just how the Sam Hill can any one or group rise to the level of "superior authority?"

Are two men more virtuous than one?

50 posted on 02/01/2002 1:53:05 PM PST by Doctor Doom
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To: Hacksaw
So you would favor a sales tax in place of an income tax? I think that would be the best system.

One of the biggest objections I have to the income tax is that it allows the Gov't to keep records of things (like how much I make) that are not its concern. IMHO the Feds should simply assess dues on the states, based on their population, and let the states raise the $$.

51 posted on 02/01/2002 1:53:23 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Exnihilo
Suppose one of my students cheats. There are no individual victims. (I don't grade on a curve.) Suppose he bribes me. No individual victims. Yet, I think punishment is needed, if grading is not to become so unreliable as to damage society.

If you take a bribe, perfesser, you have committed fraud against your employer.

(One weeps for those mush minds learning at this simpleton's feet)

52 posted on 02/01/2002 1:55:42 PM PST by Doctor Doom
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To: Exnihilo
I doubt that I would like a libertarian society, but I needn't worry because it is wholly utopian (the word means "nowhere"). However, utopian, thought can be dangerous. The desired Utopia cannot he achieved: but the destruction of an existing society may be. And it is quite likely to be succeeded by a worse one.
53 posted on 02/01/2002 1:56:09 PM PST by skeeter
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To: Hank Rearden
you oppose "HEALTH"?!?! you mean you oppose _government_ healthCare...right? Maybe your for the libertarian party for the legal drugs. eh?
54 posted on 02/01/2002 1:57:50 PM PST by Texas_Longhorn
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To: Exnihilo
In order to read this article, you have to understand the terms:
Conservative: believer in the constitution.
Libertarian: believer in a stateless world.

Having thus defined his terms, the author then proceeds to shoot down the "libertarians". The conclusion, therefore, is that libertarians are wrong. Specious reasoning, to say that least. Where does the drug war fit into this, Exnihilo? The author never mentions it.

I might add that the anarcho-capitalist school of libertarianism has come a long way in the last five to ten years, answering many of the objections seen here. Why doesn't the author talk about the work of Hans Herman Hoppe? Oh. Because the article is more than 20 years old. Of course.

55 posted on 02/01/2002 2:01:28 PM PST by Architect
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To: skeeter
I doubt that I would like a libertarian society, but I needn't worry because it is wholly utopian

The funny thing is, libertarianism is quite dystopian. It seeks to maximize individual liberty. it seeks no desired outcome.

56 posted on 02/01/2002 2:03:50 PM PST by Doctor Doom
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To: Exnihilo
bump for later
57 posted on 02/01/2002 2:05:21 PM PST by bassmaner
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To: Architect
"The anacho-captilist school of libertarianism has come a long way in the last 5-10 years"

Does this mean that they now get 0.85% of the vote as opposed to the 0.75% that they got before.

58 posted on 02/01/2002 2:07:27 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: dpwiener
Wow, you're quite the detective! I suppose this is the best objection Libertarians can muster.
59 posted on 02/01/2002 2:08:06 PM PST by Exnihilo
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To: ThJ1800
It was published in 1979. I had to find it through a secondary source.
60 posted on 02/01/2002 2:09:12 PM PST by Exnihilo
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