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Posted on 12/22/2001 7:10:13 AM PST by It'salmosttolate


click here to read the SOFTWAR article on




TOPICS: Editorial; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: carnivore; constitutionlist; echelon; magiclantern
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

Your reply #18 is an insighful, balanced, stable and good analysis and a substantive contribution and improvement to my reply #11.

Thank You.

Your reply #18 is an example of a high quality and classy reply.

Reply #18 is greatly superior to reply #13.

22 posted on 12/23/2001 10:04:14 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: ratcat
Thanks for replies #20 and #21.
23 posted on 12/23/2001 10:06:38 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: Black Jade
A comprehensive eavesdropping system like this exists, and we are expected to believe that the FBI & CIA had absolutely no clues that 9-11 was going to happen?

Whatever clues they fail to act on, are, by retroactive definition, not serious enough, non-specific, or "lacked sufficient detail to enable further investigation".

It's a lot like the Red Queen: "When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean, no more, no less"

24 posted on 12/23/2001 10:14:52 PM PST by
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To: It'salmosttolate; OKCSubmariner
Click me:

FR Recent Echelon


ECHELON: America's Secret Global Surveillance Network

Britain's spy posts accused of listening in on business

US Accused of 'Promis' Information Warfare (Echelon)

London Helps Washington Spy on Europe

Ex-NSA expert warns of concealed backdoors

Who's Reading Your Mail? Feds Have Their Eye on You

Operation Magic Lantern (FBI Now Targets Christian Defenders of Constitution)

A Dark Side to the FBI's Magic Lantern - The agency may be developing data-tracking software that can be slipped into a computer without warning -- or a search warrant

The FBI will let the American people know what's going on. Hahahaha. LOL! Click here Or better yet, click the photo:

FBI software cracks encryption wall - ‘Magic Lantern’ part of new ‘Enhanced Carnivore Project’

FBI's Secret Cyber-Monitor

The FBI is laughing, especially with the name.

FBI Is Building a 'Magic Lantern' Stop Carnivore

Alan McDonald, a senior executive with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, says that "extremist" positions on electronic encryption are a threat to normal law enforcement and are elitist and nondemocratic. Insisting that the United States had remained true to the Constitution and to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald says: "When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and balanced." (TechWire 25 Sep 97)

New FBI software aims to eavesdrop on high-tech messages - The FBI added that its research is "always mindful of constitutional, privacy and commercial equities,"

FBI software would allow Net eavesdropping

The FBI Hackers

FBI and "White Knight Hackers"

"Espionage: How Washington Booby-Trapped All the World's Computers"

FBI turns tables on Russian hackers - Agents break into overseas computers to gather evidence

In an August 1999 attack that has come to be known as “Moonlight Maze,” cyberwarriors from the Russian Academy of Sciences downloaded massive amounts of classified data from computer networks at the DOD and DOE, believed to include missile-guidance codes and nuclear-weapons data. The FBI continues to investigate the attack, says Debbie Wireman, a spokeswoman for the bureau’s National Critical Infrastructure Protection Center.


The media's double standard is glaringly evident in their reaction to the discovery that the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York was authorized to subpoena the home phone records of Associated Press reporter John Solomon for six days last May. The Justice Department was trying to find out who had leaked information to Solomon about a two-year-old wiretap on Senator Robert Torricelli, D- N.J., who is under investigation. Journalists' phone records can only be subpoenaed with the approval of the attorney general. In Solomon's case, the approval was given by Robert S. Mueller III, who acted in place of Attorney General Ashcroft, who had recused himself. Mr. Mueller has since been confirmed as the new director of the FBI.

Judge Demands Documents on FBI Computer Spy System

FBI runs Trojan horse
"The discovery comes only weeks after the Bureau made a motion to suppress evidence about the use of similar technology in the recent US versus Nicodemo Scarfo case. The FBI claimed that releasing information about the technology would jeopardise current as well as future investigations."

FBI wants to keep technology secret
"The FBI is trying to keep secret technical details of a keystroke-logging program it used to catch a Mob loan shark. A mandate from a New Jersey judge calling for a report "detailing how the key logger device functions", by 31 August, has been claimed by the US government to be so sensitive that if revealed, "national security" could be at risk.

The FBI is now seeking to invoke the Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA), so that details are not supplied." CIPA

Govt. Invokes National Security Law In Mob Hacking Case

FBI keeps its bugging secrets

When invoked, CIPA permits federal prosecutors to take extraordinary steps to protect classified information, including barring observers from the courtroom, withholding documents from the defense attorneys and moving the trial to "the facilities of another United States government agency" if the courthouse is not secure enough.

National Homeland Security Initiated Two Years Ago

EXECUTIVE ORDER 13083 - Effective Date May 14, 1998
EXECUTIVE                                                                                                EO 13083
ORDER                                                                      Effective Date  May 14, 1998

Responsible Office:  Z\ Office of Policy and Plans

Subject:  Federalism

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to guarantee the division of governmental responsibilities, embodied in the Constitution, between the Federal Government and the States that was intended by the Framers and application of those principles by the Executive departments and agencies in the formulation and implementation of policies, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Definitions. For purposes of this order:

        (a) ìStateî or ìStatesî refer to the States of the United States of America, individually or 
collectively, and, where relevant, to State governments, including units of local government and other political subdivisions established by the States.

        (b) ìPolicies that have federalism implicationsî refers to Federal regulations, proposed 
legislation, and other policy statements or actions that have substantial, direct effects on the States or on the relationship, or the distribution of power and responsibilities, between the Federal Government and the States.

        (c) ìAgencyî means any authority of the United States that is an ìagencyî under 44 U.S.C. 
3502(l), other than those considered to be independent regulatory agencies, as defined in 44 
U.S.C. 3502(5).

Sec. 2.  Fundamental Federalism Participles  In formulating and implementing policies that have federalism implications, agencies shall be guided by the following fundamental federalism principles:

        (a) The structure of government established by the Constitution is premised upon a system 
of checks and balances.

        (b) The Constitution created a Federal Government of supreme, but limited, powers.  The 
sovereign powers not granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the people or to the 
States, unless prohibited to the States by the Constitution.

        (c) Federalism reflects the principle that dividing power between the Federal Government 
and the States serves to protect individual liberty.  Preserving State authority provides an essential balance to the power of the Federal Government, while preserving the supremacy of Federal law provides an essential balance to the power of the States.

        (d) The people of the States are at liberty, subject only to the limitations in the Constitution 
itself or in Federal law, to define the moral, political, and legal character of their lives.

        (e) Our constitutional system encourages a healthy diversity in the public policies adopted 
by the people of the several States according to their own conditions, needs, and desires.  States and local governments are often uniquely situated to discern the sentiments of the people and to govern accordingly.

        (f) Effective public policy is often achieved when there is competition among the several 
States in the fashioning of different approaches to public policy issues.  The search for enlightened public policy is often furthered when individual States and local governments are free to experiment with a variety of approaches to public issues.  Uniform, national approaches to public policy problems can inhibit the creation of effective solutions to those problems.

        (g) Policies of the Federal Government should recognize the responsibility of-and should 
encourage opportunities for-States, local governments, private associations, neighborhoods, 
families, and individuals to achieve personal, social, environmental, and economic objectives 
through cooperative effort.

Sec. 3.  Federalism Policymaking Criteria.  In addition to adhering to the fundamental federalism principles set forth in section 2 of this order, agencies shall adhere, to the extent permitted by law, to the following criteria when formulating and implementing policies that have federalism implications:

        (a) There should be strict adherence to constitutional principles.  Agencies should closely 
examine the constitutional and statutory authority supporting any Federal action that would limit 
the policymaking discretion of States and local governments, and should carefully assess the 
necessity for such action. 

        (b) Agencies may limit the policymaking discretion of States and local governments only 
after determining that there is constitutional and legal authority for the action.

        (c) With respect to Federal statutes and regulations administered by States and local 
governments, the Federal Government should grant States and local governments the maximum administrative discretion Possible.  Any Federal oversight of such State and local administration should not unnecessarily intrude on State and local discretion.

        (d) It is important to recognize the distinction between matters of national or multi-state 
scope (which may justify Federal action) and matters that are merely common to the States (which may not justify Federal action because individual States, acting individually or together, may effectively deal with them).  Matters of national or multi-state scope that justify Federal action may arise in a variety of circumstances, including.

        (1) When the matter to be addressed by Federal action occurs interstate as opposed to being contained within one Stateís boundaries.

        (2) When the source of the matter to be addressed occurs in a State different from the State (or States) where a significant amount of the harm occurs.

        (3) When there is a need for uniform national standards.

        (4) When decentralization increases the costs of government thus imposing additional 
burdens on the taxpayer.

        (5) When States have not adequately protected individual rights and liberties.

        (6) When States would be reluctant to impose necessary regulations because of fears that 
regulated business activity will relocate to other States.

        (7) When placing regulatory authority at the State or local level would undermine regulatory 
goals because high costs or demands for specialized expertise will effectively place the regulatory matter beyond the resources of State authorities.

        (8) When the matter relates to Federally owned or managed property or natural resources, 
trust obligations, or international obligations.

        (9) When the matter to be regulated significantly or uniquely affects Indian tribal 

Sec. 4.  Consultation.  (a) Each agency shall have an effective process to permit elected officials and other representatives of State and local governments to provide meaningful and timely input in the development of regulatory policies that have federalism implications.

        (b) To the extent practicable and permitted by law, no agency shall promulgate any 
regulation that is not required by statute, that has federalism implications, and that imposes 
substantial direct compliance costs on States and local governments, unless:

        (1) funds necessary to pay the direct costs incurred by the State or local government in 
complying with the regulation are provided by the Federal Government; or

        (2) the agency, prior to the formal promulgation of the regulation,

        (A) in a separately identified portion of the preamble to the regulation as it is to be issued in 
the Federal Register, provides to the Director of the Office of Management and Budget a 
description of the extent of the agencyís prior consultation with representatives of affected States and local governments, a summary of the nature of their concerns, and the agencyís position supporting the need to issue the regulation; and

        (B) makes available to the Director of the Office of Management and Budget any written 
communications submitted to the agency by States or local governments.

Sec. 5.  Increasing Flexibility for State and Local Waivers.  (a) Agencies shall review the 
processes under which States and local governments apply for waivers of statutory and regulatory requirements and take appropriate steps to streamline those processes.

        (b) Each agency shall, to the extent practicable and permitted by law, consider any 
application by a State or local government for a waiver of statutory or regulatory requirements in connection with any program administered by that agency with a general view toward increasing opportunities for utilizing flexible policy approaches at the State or local level in cases in which the proposed waiver is consistent with applicable Federal policy objectives and is otherwise appropriate.

        (c) Each agency shall, to the extent practicable and permitted by law, render a decision upon a complete application for a waiver within 120 days of receipt of such application by the agency. If the application for a waiver is not granted, the agency shall provide the applicant with timely written notice of the decision and the reasons therefor.

        (d) This section applies only to statutory or regulatory requirements that are discretionary 
and subject to waiver by the agency.

Sec. 6.  Independent Agencies.  Independent regulatory agencies are encouraged to comply with the provisions of this order.

Sec. 7.  General Provisions.  (a) This order is intended only to improve the internal management of the executive branch and is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or equity by a party against the United States, its agencies or instrumentalities, its officers or employees, or any other person.

        (b) This order shall supplement but not supersede the requirements contained in Executive 
Order 12866 (ìRegulatory Planning and Reviewî), Executive Order 12988 (ìCivil justice 
Reformî), and OMB Circular A-19.

        (c) Executive Order 12612 of October 26, 1987, and Executive Order 12875 of October 26, 
1993, are revoked.

        (d) The consultation and waiver provisions in sections 4 and 5 of this order shall 
complement the Executive order entitled, ìConsultation and Coordination with Indian Tribal 
Governments,î being issued on this day.

        (e) This order shall be effective 90 days after the date of this order.

                                                              William J. Clinton
May 14, 1998.

Presidential Decision Directive #62 'COMBATING TERRORISM' - (PDD 62)

Presidential Decision Directive #63 - 'Critical Infrastructure Protection' - (PDD 63

Side-by-side Comparison: Reagan EO 12612 / Clinton EO 13083

George W. Bush Is "Moving On."



"We are the only ones who know what is good for the country, and we are the only ones who can do anything about it."
FBI Special Agent Joseph G. Deegan in 1977 - Source

Notice also, that the FBI is too stupid to know that this is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, not a Democracy. Actually, we both know that's not true. They are highly skilled, and "purposely" destroying the CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, helping to facilitate a DEMOCRACY(mob rule), to usher in the One World Government to kill, steal and destroy. Isn't it enlightening knowing that there are mobs of people on this site that have never been happier thinking that "things" have never been better? LOL! Wait until the boot catches up with them. They think they'll have to be doing something wrong to feel the boot. LOL!

They Know Not What They Do
"In a democracy in general, we can't have the police everywhere," said Michael Vatis, director of the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, which guards against computer attacks by terrorists, foreign agents and teen hackers."

Republics and Democracies

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It"

"to provide a cure for the evils under which the United States labored; that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and trials of democracy...."
Edmund Randolph - May 31, 1787

"The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want [that is, do not lack] virtue; but are the dupes of pretended patriots."
Elbridge Gerry - 1787

"It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity."
Alexander Hamilton - June 21, 1788

"We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."
Alexander Hamilton

"Remember, Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself! There never was a democracy that ‘did not commit suicide.’"
Samuel Adams

"… democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
James Madison

Madison and Hamilton and Jay and their compatriots of the convention prepared and adopted a constitution in which they nowhere even mentioned the word democracy, not because they were not familiar with such a form of government, but because they were. The word democracy had not occurred in the Declaration of Independence, and does not appear in the constitution of a single one of our fifty states — which constitutions are derived mainly from the thinking of the Founding Fathers of the Republic — for the same reason. They knew all about democracies, and if they had wanted one for themselves and their posterity, they would have founded one.

15 percent on the right are so glued into their ideology that rational thought is impossible. These are the people who will make any excuse to avoid seeing Bill Clinton for the corrupting presence that he is, and these are the people who will support George W. Bush no matter what he does

National ID Card Gaining Support - By Robert O'Harrow Jr. and Jonathan Krim - Washington Post Staff Writers -Monday, December 17, 2001; Page A01

Executive Order 13083 And Our Freedom - Both Parties Were Going To Finish You Off
"Worse yet, one of the until-now secret justifications for this action by the governors was to push through a plan for the institution of a national identification card,"

Speaker Hastert Considering National ID Card

National ID Cards weighed by Congress

How the Republicans implemented the Democrats' National ID Plan

National ID

Here's a "Cover Story" so they won't be hung in town square

Amerika, Amerika

Thanks but no thanks, Larry Ellison
Note: Larry Ellison, Oracle Corp. CEO, introduced Clinton as a courageous leader

Sample of Larry Ellison's new National ID Card

Human ID implant to be unveiled soon

Big Blue's Big Brother Lab

U.S. law subsection 666 "dead beat dads" prototype for the National I.D. System

What I Have Learned From The Twentieth Century

National ID - Our Line in the Sand

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
Samuel Adams (1780)

"We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the country,"
FBI Director Louis Freeh - testimony before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime on June 5, 1997

Preparing for the Terrorist Threat - "October 2000"

25 posted on 12/23/2001 11:22:44 PM PST by Uncle Bill
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To: Uncle Bill
The perfect response to reply #25:

But aren't the FBI & CIA & DOJ supposed to protect us all from terrorist attacks both inside and outside the US?

They tell us we have no one else to turn to for protection and we must give up more freedoms so they can better protect us.

And we are told we endanger the war on terrorism and help terrorists when we constuctively criticize and question any policies Bush, Mueller,Tenet and Ashcroft have made to be implemented by the FBI and CIA and DOJ. But don't they know what is best? They say they do. They all say, trust us!

Why the Repubs and Bushes and even Democrats tell us Bush is so much better than Clinton that we all now can move along, sit back, never constructively participate in criticism and can turn things over to Bush and his appointees and never have to worry anymore.

Sleep well, socialists and world government advocates in America. What you don't know or what you want to ignore won't hurt you. Or will it?

26 posted on 12/24/2001 12:03:25 AM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
MERRY CHRISTMAS...If the few patriots remaining under Bush II are not able to smash the Zionist spy network we might as well begin preparing for the REAL resistance to these vampires.


27 posted on 12/24/2001 12:12:05 AM PST by Good King Wenceslas
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To: OKCSubmariner
Washington can't protect you

Merry Christmas, my friend.

28 posted on 12/24/2001 12:19:54 AM PST by Uncle Bill
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To: OKCSubmariner; BlackJade
I get the nagging feeling that issues of sovereignity and nationhood are not that important to these world leaders. I think the motivation of these bozos is the "quick buck". Now the "gangstas" that these Intelligence masters, Bush and Putin, have befriended are biting them in the butt.

If Echelon or Magic Lantern is listening to my tirades,since I am a patriot who loves my country, these cynical Benedict Arnolds laughing their fannies off at my naivite.

It is more about corporations and profits. Our intelligence agencies can't protect you in the friendly skies but get on those planes anyway...what can you do for your country..keep the bottom line up for those airlines, even though you are risking your patoot every time you take a trip.

Clinton was the most venal money grubber. Every time you thought something was done for national security; you were misled. He would sell the gold in his dying grandmother's teeth to the highest bidder. IMO.

Those FBI agents who infiltrated patriotic Bubba organizations knew there was no threat. It was a cynical operation to fix blame so you would not see the real action...the crooks under your nose.

Now the Triads and the Mafiya are calling the shots and our leaders are as scared as we are.(Don't Clinton and Lady Macbeth look relaxed though?)

29 posted on 12/24/2001 4:48:26 AM PST by rubbertramp
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To: Uncle Bill
Your "REPLIES" sometimes out-do you "posts", but not often.

Merry CHRISTmas

30 posted on 12/24/2001 5:41:10 AM PST by It'salmosttolate
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To: rubbertramp; BlackJade; Uncle Bill; OKCSubmariner; ratcat
Thanks for the excellent thread. And Merry Christmas to all!
31 posted on 12/24/2001 9:35:18 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: OKCSubmariner
32 posted on 12/24/2001 2:42:09 PM PST by ChaseR
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To: OKCSubmariner;It'salmosttolate;woofie;Uncle Bill...
This was NOT a failure to gather and analyze intelligence

You bet there was no "failure to gather and analyze intelligence"! The CIA has obviously been in touch with Al Qaeda operatives for years in planning joint CIA-Bin Laden operations in the Balkans. The Clinton and the Bush administrations made a strategic decision to "make a pact with the devil," then naturally they will play innocent and say "Gee, we just couldn't find Bin Laden."

According to"Perhaps most threatening to the SFOR mission - and more importantly, to the safety of the American personnel serving in Bosnia - is the unwillingness of the Clinton Administration to come clean with the Congress and with the American people about its complicity in the delivery of weapons from Iran to the Muslim government in Sarajevo. That policy, personally approved by Bill Clinton in April 1994 at the urging of CIA Director-designate (and then-NSC chief) Anthony Lake and the U.S. ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith, has, according to the Los Angeles Times (citing classified intelligence community sources), 'played a central role in the dramatic increase in Iranian influence in Bosnia.' Further, according to the Times, in September 1995 National Security Agency analysts contradicted Clinton Administration claims of declining Iranian influence, insisting instead that 'Iranian Revolutionary Guard personnel remain active throughout Bosnia.' Likewise, 'CIA analysts noted that the Iranian presence was expanding last fall,' with some ostensible cultural and humanitarian activities 'known to be fronts' for the Revolutionary Guard and Iran's intelligence service, known as VEVAK, the Islamic revolutionary successor to the Shah's SAVAK. [[LAT, 12/31/96] .....
For example, one such group about which details have come to light is the Third World Relief Agency (TWRA), a Sudan-based, phoney humanitarian organization which has been a major link in the arms pipeline to Bosnia. ["How Bosnia's Muslims Dodged Arms Embargo: Relief Agency Brokered Aid From Nations, Radical Groups," Washington Post, 9/22/96; see also "Saudis Funded Weapons For Bosnia, Official Says: $ 300 Million Program Had U.S. 'Stealth Cooperation'," Washington Post, 2/2/96] TWA is believed to be connected with such fixtures of the Islamic terror network as Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (the convicted mastermind behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing) and Osama Binladen, a wealthy Saudi emigre believed to bankroll numerous militant groups. [WP, 9/22/96]"

More on the Rahman story: THE CIA AND THE SHEIK [Omar Abdel Rahman]:< THE CIA AND THE SHEIK [Omar Abdel Rahman]:"'It was no accident that the sheikh got a visa and that he's still in the country,' replied the agent, visibly upset. 'He's here under the banner of national security, the State Department, the NSA [National Security Agency], and the CIA.' The agent pointed out that the sheikh had been granted a tourist visa, and later a green card, despite the fact that he was on a State Department terrorist watch-list that should have barred him from the country. He's an untouchable, concluded the agent.""Skopje, 26 September: Daily Vecer read on the relation between the members of the so-called ONA National Liberation Army, UCK in Albanian and the Number One world's terrorist - Usamah Bin-Ladin. The writings were supported with photos that clearly showed that the Mojahedin are fighting in the 'ONA' [National Liberation Army] lines....
Dnevnik and Nova Makedonija also focus on the financial relations among the terrorist organizations in the Balkans such as the 'disbanded' KLA Kosovo Liberation Army, UCK in Albanian from Kosovo, amnestied OVPMB (Liberation Army of Presevo, Medvedja and Bujanovac) from southern Serbia and the intelligence connections between the terrorist groups acting in Macedonia and Usamah Bin-Ladin's organization Al-Qa'idah.
Dnevnik reports the text published in the British daily Times claiming that Bin-Ladin and KLA have a 'joint' cash box in the United States. There is information that Bin-Ladin's collaborators raise money through an organization allegedly for the Albanian refugees after the Kosovo crisis. The raised money is then allocated to Bin-Ladin's terrorists, but also to KLA fighters. Some of the men in KLA are trained in the camps led by Bin-Ladin.
The Times does not state the name of the organization, but it is obvious that it is a "humanitarian organization" acting in the mosques and Muslim cultural centres in the United States. Under the veil that money for 'Kosovo's refugees' or 'Afghanistan's children' is being raised, the organization accumulates large amounts of dollars. This is not additional expenditure for the Muslims that live in the United States, as according to the American laws the persons that support the humanitarian organizations have tax reliefs, so the Muslims working in the United States are stimulated to give money in the organization. Some of money is won back directly from the American budget through the tax reliefs. The raised money is used for buying weapons.
The Times stresses that some of these organizations were established under CIA's auspices in the time when the American intelligence agency supported the Afghanistan Islamists in the fight against the Soviet Union. But even when the Russian Army withdrew from Afghanistan they continued to raise money.
Money for the KLA was raised in a similar manner, under US auspices, as that helped to oust Slobodan Milosevic's regime in Yugoslavia."

Is anyone shocked by this revelation? Prince Turki has been a go-between with the Bin Laden network and the CIA for over two decades. He also showed up at this Dubai hospital. CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July-- French report claims terrorist leader stayed in Dubai hospital "Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro. The disclosures are known to come from French intelligence which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.
Bin Laden is reported to have arrived in Dubai on July 4 from Quetta in Pakistan with his own personal doctor, nurse and four bodyguards, to be treated in the urology department. While there he was visited by several members of his family and Saudi personalities, and the CIA.
The CIA chief was seen in the lift, on his way to see Bin Laden, and later, it is alleged, boasted to friends about his contact. He was recalled to Washington soon afterwards.
Intelligence sources say that another CIA agent was also present; and that Bin Laden was also visited by Prince Turki al Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence, who had long had links with the Taliban, and Bin Laden. Soon afterwards Turki resigned, and more recently he has publicly attacked him in an open letter: 'You are a rotten seed, like the son of Noah'".

33 posted on 12/25/2001 3:15:01 AM PST by Black Jade
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To: Black Jade
If the Clinton and Bush administrations both made a deal with the devil, I wonder why bin Laden chose to attack this country in a way that made a response inevitable? I think the evidence that the highest levels of the administration were involved in such a deal is much stronger for the Clinton administration than for the George W. Bush administration. Granted, things like the reported Dubai meeting suggest that parts of the current administration wanted at least to continue communicating with bin Laden. But I think the fact that 9/11 occurred means that bin Laden considered any deal off with the current administration.
34 posted on 12/25/2001 8:32:59 AM PST by aristeides
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To: aristeides;rubbertramp; BlackJade; Uncle Bill; OKCSubmariner; ratcat;Fred Mertz...

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do
that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about
American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and
the Americans know it."
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

After the spiking of the Fox Story about Israel's spy ring and phone tapping scandal, I
guess Sharon is right!

Israeli spy ring largest ever uncovered inside United States! Mossad is able to listen in on
any phone in America, and appears to have SOLD the data collected to other nations!

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Now you see it, now you don't - the world notices what Fox News did!

NewsMax rushes in where Fox News fears to tread.

35 posted on 12/25/2001 8:53:24 AM PST by It'salmosttolate
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To: aristeides
If the Clinton and Bush administrations both made a deal with the devil, I wonder why bin Laden chose to attack this country in a way that made a response inevitable? I think the evidence that the highest levels of the administration were involved in such a deal is much stronger for the Clinton administration than for the George W. Bush administration. Granted, things like the reported Dubai meeting suggest that parts of the current administration wanted at least to continue communicating with bin Laden. But I think the fact that 9/11 occurred means that bin Laden considered any deal off with the current administration.

Bin Laden and his operatives know very well that the CIA does not want to lose their Balkan assets or other ways that they have benefited from the Bin Laden network. They know that 9-11 would not cause the CIA to sever these connections, and it is obvious that the Al Qaeda network throughout the world will continue to function.

Also the Saudi Bin Laden Group through Carlyle and other channels stood to profit from increases in US military spending. Bin Laden Family Could Profit From a Jump In Defense Spending Due to Ties to U.S. Bank

36 posted on 12/25/2001 9:06:46 PM PST by Black Jade
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To: It'salmosttolate;t-shirt;aristeides;rubbertramp; Uncle Bill; OKCSubmariner; ratcat;Fred Mertz
"With all the whining and crying about Echelon and Carnivore, critics, domestic and foreign, of U.S. electronic eavesdropping vastly overestimate our abilities to process and disseminate the stuff," noted Brown.

The utter arrogance of such a statement is astounding. Anyone who dismisses protests of a giant "Big Brother is always watching you" system, as "whining and crying" has no respect for our constitution or for the American citizen.

37 posted on 12/25/2001 9:16:10 PM PST by Black Jade
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To: It'salmosttolate
38 posted on 12/25/2001 9:20:25 PM PST by Free Vulcan
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To: Constitution List
Oh yeah, Constitution List bump
39 posted on 12/25/2001 9:24:36 PM PST by Free Vulcan
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To: It'salmosttolate
40 posted on 12/25/2001 9:56:25 PM PST by kimosabe31
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