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"The Arabs Are Responsible"
Gamla ^ | December 10, 2001 | staff

Posted on 12/10/2001 9:59:26 AM PST by Nachum

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To: beecharmer
Yeah right, I got my education about Islam on 9-11 and the actions or rather inaction of it's followers that preceded that date, and that is all I want or need to know about it.
61 posted on 12/12/2001 5:25:13 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: beecharmer
You mean the book with only one amazon.com reader review as follows: Revealing look at a dangerous political menace, November 13, 2000
Reviewer: A reader from Amman, Jordan
A well-documented and revealing look at a dangerous political menace to Israel and to the Middle East, radical Jewish fundamentalists who preach racism and use terror and violence, a threat at least as scary as Saddam Hussein and Usama Bin Ladin, probably more so given the reality of massive American support for the State of Israel and the more informal, but equally important, support of well-meaning diaspora Jews for these Torah-carrying, talmudic terrorists.

(I wonder what the ratio of Jewish terrorist to Islamic terrorist would be; probably something like 0.00023:6,666,666,666!)

62 posted on 12/12/2001 5:26:54 AM PST by Prodigal Daughter
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To: ExiledInTaiwan
I don't know about this technique giving one popularity, but I do know this technique is the favored technique of the Israel First crowd...

Funny, that is exactly what Benny Morris did. However, now that he is "traif" to the "hate-Israel" crowd, it is time to pump up Finkelstein. That is, until he does a 180 like Morris.

63 posted on 12/12/2001 9:00:30 AM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum; beecharmer; plastic; dennisw
The IF crowd just doesn't get it, cannot think through this complex world; it's either black or white, no other colors or shades.

To make it crystal clear for you: I've always known Morris was a zionist suupporter, but academic circles accept the research he has extracted from Israeli archives, rcently released. However, many academics take issue with Morris on the conclusions he draws from this body of evidence. I have known this for some time but your whacko pro-Israel sites had to put some spin on this, as if it came as a surprise. Please do a little more reading at serious sites before you come back with more garbage like this. As I said before you are at least 5 years behind on this stuff. Another source, three years ago, to show your inane twists:

Al-Ahram Weekly On-line   Al-Ahram Weekly On-line
Date: 21 - 27 May, 1998
Issue No.378
Published in Cairo by AL-AHRAM established in 1875 Current issue | Previous issue | Site map

New history, old ideas

By Edward SaidEdward El-said The French monthly Le Monde Diplomatique together with the Revue d'etudes palestiniennes, a quarterly journal published in Paris by the Institute of Palestine Studies, held a conference last week which I attended and participated in. Although it was announced as the first time that the so-called "new" Israeli historians and their Palestinian counterparts had exchanged ideas in public, it was actually the third or fourth time; yet what made the Paris meeting so novel was that this was certainly the first time that a prolonged exchange between them was possible.

On the Palestinian side there were Elie Sambar, Nur Masalha and myself; on the Israeli side Benni Morris, Ilan Pappe, Itamar Rabinowitch (who is not really a new historian, but a former Labour Party adviser, Israeli ambassador to the United States, professor of history at Tel Aviv University, and an expert on Syria, but whose views seem to be changing), and finally, Zeev Sternhell, an Israeli historian of right-wing European mass movements, professor at the Hebrew University, author of a very important recent book on the myths of Israeli society (the main ones of which -- that it is a liberal, socialist, democratic state -- he demolished completely in an extraordinarily detailed analysis of its illiberal, quasi-fascist, and profoundly anti-socialist character as evidenced by the Labour Party generally, and the Histadrut in particular).

Because it was not well-advertised, the conference attracted rather small audiences on the whole, but because of the quality of the material presented and the fact that sessions went for several hours, it was a very valuable exercise, despite the unevenness of some of the contributions. One very powerful impression I had was that whereas the Israeli participants -- who were by no means of the same political persuasion -- often spoke of the need for detachment, critical distance, and reflective calm as important for historical study, the Palestinian side was much more urgent, more severe and even emotional in its insistence on the need for new history. The reason is of course that Israel, and consequently most Israelis, are the dominant party in the conflict: they hold all the territory, have all the military power, and can therefore take the time, and have the luxury to sit back and let the debate unfold calmly. Only Ilan Pape, an avowed socialist and anti-Zionist historian at Haifa University, was open in his espousal of the Palestinian point of view, and, in my opinion, provided the most iconoclastic and brilliant of the Israeli interventions. For the others in varying degree, Zionism was seen as a necessity for Jews. I was surprised, for instance, when Sternhell during the final session admitted that a grave injustice was committed against the Palestinians, and that the essence of Zionism was that it was a movement for conquest, then went on to say that it was a "necessary" conquest.

"The Palestinian side was much more urgent, more severe and even emotional in its insistence on the need for new history. The reason is of course that Israel, and consequently most Israelis, are the dominant party in the conflict: they hold all the territory, have all the military power, and can therefore take the time, and have the luxury to sit back and let the debate unfold calmly"

One of the most remarkable things about the Israelis, again except for Pappe, is the profound contradiction, bordering on schizophrenia, that informs their work. Benni Morris, for example, ten years ago wrote the most important Israeli work on the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem. Using Haganah and Zionist archives he established beyond any reasonable doubt that there had been a forced exodus of Palestinians as a result of a specific policy of "transfer" which had been adopted and approved by Ben-Gurion. Morris's meticulous work showed that in district after district commanders had been ordered to drive out Palestinians, burn villages, systematically take over their homes and property. Yet strangely enough, by the end of the book Morris seems reluctant to draw the inevitable conclusions from his own evidence. Instead of saying outright that the Palestinians were, in fact, driven out he says that they were partially driven out by Zionist forces, and partially "left" as a result of war. It is as if he was still enough of a Zionist to believe the ideological version --that Palestinians left on their own without Israeli eviction-- rather than completely to accept his own evidence, which is that Zionist policy dictated Palestinian exodus. Similarly, in his book Sternhell admits that the Zionists never considered the Arabs as a problem because if they did they would have openly admitted that the Zionist plan to establish a Jewish state could not have been realised without also getting rid of the Palestinians. But he still insisted during the conference in Paris that although it was morally wrong to expel Palestinians, it was necessary to do so.

Despite these discordances it is impressive that when pushed hard either by Pappe or by the Palestinians, both Morris and Sternhell appeared to hesitate. I take their changing views as symptomatic of a deeper change taking place inside Israel. The point here is that a significant change in the main lines of Zionist ideology cannot really occur within the hegemony of official politics, either Labour or Likud, but must take place outside that particular context, that is, where intellectuals are more free to ponder and reflect upon the unsettling realities of present-day Israel. The problem with other attempts by intellectuals on both sides to influence Netanyahu's policies, for instance, is that as in the case of the Copenhagen group they take place too close to governments who have a much narrower, much shorter range view of things. If the years since l993 have shown anything it is that no matter how enlightened or liberal, the official Zionist view of the conflict with the Palestinians (and this is as true of Left Zionists like Meretz or centre left people like Shimon Peres) is prepared to live with the schizophrenia I referred to above. Yes, we want peace with the Palestinians, but no, there was nothing wrong with what we had to do in 1948. As far as real peace is concerned this basic contradiction is quite untenable, since it accepts the notion that Palestinians in their own land are secondary to Jews. Moreover, it also accepts the fundamental contradiction between Zionism and democracy (how can one have a democratic Jewish state and, as is now the case, one million non-Jews who are not equal in rights, land owning, or work to the Jews?). The great virtue of the new historians is that their work at least pushes the contradictions within Zionism to limits otherwise not apparent to most Israelis, and even many Arabs.

It is certainly true that the great political importance today of the new Israeli historians is that they have confirmed what generations of Palestinians, historians or otherwise, have been saying about what happened to us as a people at the hands of Israel. And of course they have done so as Israelis who in some measure speak for the conscience of their people and society. But here, speaking self-critically, I feel that as Arabs generally, and Palestinians in particular, we must also begin to explore our own histories, myths, and patriarchal ideas of the nation, something which, for obvious reasons we have not so far done. During the Paris colloquium Palestinians, including myself, were speaking with a great sense of urgency about the present since, in this present, the Palestinian nakba continues. Dispossession goes on, and the denial of our rights has taken new and more punishing forms. Nevertheless, as intellectuals and historians we have a duty to look at our history, the history of our leaderships, and of our institutions with a new critical eye. Is there something about those that can perhaps explain the difficulties as a people that we now find ourselves in? What about the conflict between the great families or hamulas, the fact that our leaders have traditionally not been elected democratically, and the fact, equally disastrous, that we seem to reproduce corruption and mediocrity in each new generation? These are serious, and even crucial matters, and they cannot either be left unanswered or postponed indefinitely under the guise of national defence and national unity. There is perhaps a start of critical self-awareness in Yezid Sayegh's new book on the history of Palestinian armed struggle, but we need more concretely political and critical works of that sort, works whose grasp of all the complexities and paradoxes of our history are not shied away from.

So far as I know neither the work of Morris, Pappe, or Sternhell has been translated into Arabic. This absence should be remedied forthwith. Just as important, I think, is the need for Arab intellectuals to interact directly with these historians by having them invited for discussions in Arab universities, cultural centres, and public fora. Similarly I believe it is our duty as Palestinian and yes, even Arab intellectuals to engage Israeli academic and intellectual audiences by lecturing at Israeli centres, openly, courageously, uncompromisingly. What have years of refusing to deal with Israel done for us? Nothing at all, except to weaken us and weaken our perception of our opponent. Politics since l948 is now at an end, buried in the failures of the Oslo process of attempted separation between Israeli Jews and Palestinians. As part of the new politics I have been speaking about in these articles, a splendid opportunity presents itself in continued interaction with the new Israeli historians who, while a tiny minority nevertheless represent a phenomenon of considerable importance. Their work, for instance, had a great influence on the 22 part film series, Tekuma, shown on Israeli television as a history of the state produced for its 50th year celebrations. They are greatly in demand in Israeli schools as lecturers, and their work has attracted the attention of historians and others in both Europe and the United States. It seems anomalous, not to say retrograde, that the one place they have not been fully heard is the Arab world, but we need to rid ourselves of our racial prejudices and ostrich-like attitudes and make the effort to change the situation. The time has come.



64 posted on 12/12/2001 1:01:38 PM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: beecharmer; plastic; Nachum; dennisw
For the others in varying degree, Zionism was seen as a necessity for Jews. I was surprised, for instance, when Sternhell during the final session admitted that a grave injustice was committed against the Palestinians, and that the essence of Zionism was that it was a movement for conquest, then went on to say that it was a "necessary" conquest.

This about sums up the whole thing. These historians have proven beyond a doubt the state of Israel was founded on killing, burning and displacement on a wholesale basis, but their personal bias and prejudices are there after the glaring evidence is staring them in the face.

"The conquest was necessary!"

Indeed!

65 posted on 12/12/2001 1:14:59 PM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: ExiledInTaiwan
It is hard to take Edward Said seriously, as it is hard to take Benni Morris seriously. All of them come from hardened ideological perspectives. They simply represent their point of view and little else. The hope for an egalatarian democracy in the holy land is a futile dream. There is neither trust, nor is their good will.

However the people of the holy land came to be, whatever their religion or background, there are claims of violence and counter claims of injustice. Nothing will never satisfy the combatants. Nothing will satisfy the critics either. All that is left is war.

Neither Arab or Jew will compromise, and only war and the ability to win it remains. The Arabs have never stopped dreaming of the destruction of any organized Jewish presence. The Jews have never stopped dreaming of their national homeland.

If this sounds fatalistic, it is.

66 posted on 12/12/2001 1:50:49 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Sabramerican
This is Arab logic. Amazing.

The phrase "Arab logic" is an oxymoron. Probably never was, isn't now, probably never will be. Dealing with this "logic" is like dealing with juvenile delinquent lawbreakers. Incomplete mental formation.

67 posted on 12/12/2001 2:13:13 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: dennisw; beecharmer; plastic
The Russians are responsible for historic carniage in Ukraine - and oncemore, most every educated Ukrainian knows it.

You are suffering from an extreme case of denial!!

I have just provided you with documentation, all irrefutable, which shows the leader of this particular pogrom, Lazar Kaganovich, was Jewish, the secret police who carried out the attrocities were at least 60% Jewish, the New York Times, which lied and covered up this progrom was also owned by a Jewish family. Yet you maintain it was the Russians.

As for what every educated Ukrainian knows, best go to a Doctor of experimental psychology in Canada, who has been battling the media's cover-up of these events at this site:

Ukraine Archive

This site is maintained be Dr. Lubomyr Prytulak, a Ukrainian who got his PhD in Experimental Psychology, from Stanford, and was an associate Professor in Western Ontario University.

68 posted on 12/12/2001 6:51:20 PM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: Nachum
It is hard to take Edward Said seriously, as it is hard to take Benni Morris seriously. All of them come from hardened ideological perspectives

But this is just the same for the pro-zionist, pro-Israel, sites you and so many others here are quoting from. They only add so much spin and emotion to these issues.

So much so, that it is nearly impossible to discuss these issues without someone making emotional attacks. Of course, as you point out, across the ocean, these attacks are much more than emotional.

I have provided you with enough evidence which proves the academic world was well aware of Dr Benny Morris's positions. Yet the post you gave us is trying to add some terrific spin to this, as if the academics at Berkely were "shocked" by a "180" taken by Morris.

This is all a bit much. You must also take a critical look at the sites you are frequenting. They also have a hardened ideologic perspective.

As for craeting a peace in the region, nothing works better than treating people justly, and creating a level of comfort in peoples' lives where they will be disinclined towards violence.

Perhaps the US model of a pleuralistic society, without a state religion, and equality of all, would be the best model. After all, the Palestinians and Zionists are genetically brothers, from the same semitic stock, the Americans are from a more diverse background, but still have a cohesive, egelatarian society.

These hardened ideological stances need to stop, a dialogue needs to begin. But even here on FR this has been a hard thing to do.

When I first discussed these issues I often quoted some facts from a simple Worldbook Encyclopedia. I was called a liar, anti-semite, .. .well, you get the picture. And this just for quoting a Grolliers published encyclopedia about the history of Palestine!

People are so wound up about these issues and I'll say it again, you need to look to the sites you frequent, they are laden with as much emotion as fact. Take it all with a grain of salt and do the American thing, go look at the oppositions sites and materials. Then try to discern what is truth and what is self-serving propaganda.

69 posted on 12/12/2001 7:19:03 PM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: ExiledInTaiwan
These hardened ideological stances need to stop, a dialogue needs to begin. But even here on FR this has been a hard thing to do.

Dialogue is not possible in my opinion. I also, think that it never was possible. There are individuals who have tried to have that dialogue in the holy land, and in the US and the same roadblocks appear without any compromise.

It begins with the basic propositions. The Arabs have defined the holy land as a place that no Jew can have a say in. The Jews have had the physical boundaries of their self definitions codified for thousands of years. There is no dialogue in that. There is no compromise in that. There is only war.

What you term injustice, can be turned around and said as easily in return to the Arabs. That is why the majority of Jews do not take it seiously. They view themselves every much as a victim as do the Arabs. How many intractible disputes can you name in this situation?

The Arabs and Jews both claim Jerusalem and the Temple mount for their own-

Both claim the cave of the patriarchs (cave of Mach Pelah) for their own-

Both claim the tomb of Rachel and the tomb of Joseph for their own-

The Arabs want the same right of return as Jews do to all of Israel proper. There are numerous other sites and issues over which niether will negotiate. The Jews will not give up military control for fear that the Arabs would bar them from their most holy sites, and they cannot let the Arabs jump enmass to Israel and vote. The Arabs teach that the Jews have no place on those sites. Period. Where is there negotiability in this? Where is there compromise?

Finally there is much to support the argument that the Arabs had only used any negotiation as a ruse to weaken Israel and the Jews militarily. They pursued Oslo only to set up a situation where they could arm themselves and then look for any pretect to begin armed assaults on civilians. They knew that the Jews would respond militarily and use this to further advantage in the court of world opinion.

IMHO, your desire for that dialogue is noble but flawed. As of my writing today, the Jews have just written off Arafat and are preparing for the disarming of the entire Arab population of Judea and Samaria (the west bank). Furthermore, there is tremendous support for this action in the US and in other quarters world wide. I have maintained that the only peace possible is through total annexation of Judea and Samaria by Israel and disarmament of Arab resistance. This will force them to talk because they are incapable of shooting and bombing.

70 posted on 12/13/2001 8:51:52 AM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum
You should not paint all Muslims as incapable of a peaceful coexistence. There are too many times in history when they controlled the region and were quite open to let people of all faiths worship there. I quoted the sources before, just too lazy to do it again. Just peruse "Jerusalem: Sacred City of Mankind" by Teddy Kollek & Moshe Pearlman, reprinted 1975, p. 162/5. Same can be said for South Spain of the Moors, and Palestine, pre-Zionist movement era.

Finally, just want to say, solution to our world and its mess is always an individual choice. We try our best in the political realm, but must make the spiritual battle on individual grounds. This world has never been perfect and I dare say, never will be. But some individuals, in the midst of this morass, have achieved a level of perfection(divine or spiritual) most of us can only dream of.

As for politics, I believe Socrates said no honest man can go into politics, for if you are honest and try to stay in politics, you will be killed.

71 posted on 12/14/2001 3:40:16 AM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: ExiledInTaiwan
Of course I do not paint all Muslims as "incapable of peacefull coexistance". Unfortunately, the experience of Jews from the time that they have returned to the holy land in the mid 1800's on forward paints a different picture about this particular place.

For whatever reasons, Jerusalem and the entirety of the holy land is different. The treatment of Jews by the Arab population was and is different. Jews have lived in "peace" more or less in various middle eastern countries for many centuries. Unfortunately Jews were also subject to expulsions, horrible decrees, and various trauma over the millenia. Living at the whim and edict of a variety of despots. If you want to call that living in "peace", than that is a curious definition.

The various Moslem regimes that have held power over the Holy Land have held Jews in contempt, treating the remnants of the holiest sites of Jerusalem's temple as a garbage dump or worse. When Jews began to assert themselves in any way, the Moslem response in the Holy Land was violence. It was and it still is. I believe this is a cultural phenomenom. There is no reasoning or negotiating with it. It is a difficult thing for a westerner to comprehend, but this is how it is.

72 posted on 12/14/2001 8:28:27 AM PST by Nachum
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To: dennisw
BUMP
73 posted on 12/14/2001 7:29:30 PM PST by timestax
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