Camp for Nude Witches Fights Closing

Reuters ^ | 11-28-2001

[Cagey]

LEAVENWORTH, Kan. (Reuters) - A Kansas retreat that caters to witches and pagan rituals is fighting for survival amid community talk that naked witches may be weaving magical spells in the moonlight.

The owners of the Gaea Retreat Center, a 168-acre camp west of Kansas City that is home to such annual events as the Gaea Goddess Gathering and a "Heartland Pagan Spiritual event" filed suit on Monday in Leavenworth County District Court after county commissioners effectively put the retreat out of business by denying it a renewal of its land use permit.

"They say they're afraid of us, what we do here, the sound of drums. ... They don't know how lucky they are to have us as their neighbors," caretaker Wanda Roths said. "We're very quiet, very peaceful. There has never been any trouble out here."

The Leavenworth County commissioners denied the renewal for the permit, issued six years ago, in late October after a community petition raised accusations that the retreat fostered public nudity, pedophilia, and illegal drug and alcohol use. Neighbors also expressed concern about devil worship.

The suit claims the commissioners' denial is illegal and unconstitutional, as well as violating laws protecting freedom of religious expression and practice.

Lawyers for the county declined to comment.

The retreat denies any illegal activity, and county officials say there is no evidence of any.

Roths said there are "clothing optional" locations on the retreat grounds, and witches, Wiccans and other pagans do sometimes hold nighttime meetings around bonfires. But the retreat at times also attracts more traditional religious followers, she said.

Gaea, which means "Mother Earth," offers sanctuary to a variety of alternative religions and lifestyles, according to Roths. "We accept anybody," she said.

Before its current incarnation, the sprawling site was a church camp.

[Cagey]

You're going to try to convince me that nudity isn't commonly associated with sex?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. However, your first post here insinuated that this article was about sex and I pointed out that sex was not even mentioned in the text of the story.

You then asked me if I have children and how. I could ask you if you take a shower fully clothed, but I don't really want to get that personal.

[All-American Medic]

"But I won't be fooled into supporting, for example, a bunch of gays who decide to call themselves a religion" No one is asking you to support or endorse them, what we are asking you to do is allow them the constitutional right of free assembly. You dont have to support these wiccans, but what you should do is support their right to worship as they see fit, as long as they are not breaking the law.

[Chemnitz]

I don't care to parse all of your logical fallacies.

[slhill]

You're telling me you honestly meant to say that you thought that the Founding Fathers would be sent to sleep by learning what horrors have been perpetrated in their name?! What do you mean by that? That they'll be so uninterested? Weird.

Secondly, I was commenting on historical fact.

I know you were commenting on historical fact. You were doing so to show that you approved of those historical facts, were you not? Those historical facts, with which I am well acquainted, included limited religious freedom for non-Christians. I was pointing out that I cannot understand what philosophical distinctions you are using to distinguish Christianity, Judaism and other religions. I can only think of a religious justification for that type of distinction. But that isn't adequate for a political system.

[eastsider]

If a gay bathhouse is in your town and sodomites flock to it, a community should be able to get rid of it.

Amazingly enough, they were closed down in New York City years ago, but for public health reasons, not morality. Ditto for the hetero sex clubs.

[All-American Medic]

What logical fallacies?? Im simply pointing out to you, that they are a private organization on private land, not engaging in illegal activity. You are being hypocritical and cant defend it.

[slhill]

Fair enough, there is a potentially legitimate cause for concern. But personally, I don't think nudity with children is a problem per se; context is vital. Who is involved? Where is it happening? Swimming pool changing rooms etc etc

[All-American Medic]

"Yes. If a gay bathhouse is in your town and sodomites flock to it, a community should be able to get rid of it. Are you saying that the people have no rights at all in a situation like this? That is a ridiculous analogy, where is the evidence that any kind of sexual activity is occuring at this retreat? The town board in this case even admits there is no evidence of it. I also notice that you have not addressed one question or comment, I made in my earlier post to you about your obivous belief that religion is not constitutionally protected.

[biblewonk]

Especially where privacy rights are concerned. You read like the type of person who'd scream and kick to infinity if your precious right to worship God in the manner you see fit was taken away from you. Why is it so difficult for you to apply the same standards to those who worship differently than you do?

I don't look for support from the government in Christianity. Neither did anyone in the Bible, and usually they got the opposite. You read like someone who thinks life is fair and impartial and no one ever gets a raw deal. The bible calls our court system, "the courts of the unjust" so go ahead and defend it all you want. But not to me.

[George Smiley]

I was trying to figure that out myself. It probably has more to do with the fact that they might be (gasp) dancing than their religious practice.

BB, I get tickled at how threads like this bring out those whose mantra is "rights for me, but not for thee..." Got that boy whupped into shape yet?

There are quite a few whom I'd not care to imagine dancing in the nude. Or in spandex, either, for that matter.

But for the sake of argument, if God doesn't like nudity then why are we born that way? :^)

[slhill]

I am saying two things:

1) The sodomites form part of the people.

2) The people can boycott, scream, shout, refuse to do business etc etc. They can also try to get laws passed banning the activity they object to. They cannot simply use brute force to get people to leave.

I didn't realise that this was a tricky concept.

[ofMagog]

Now where we gonna meet?

[Orion]

Any second now the libertarians will log in, with something like, "First, they come for the naked witches. Then..."

As much as I find all forms of witchcraft absolutely nauseating, if they want to have a private reserve for them to get naked, eat yogurt, and chant "boogie-woogie" until the sky falls in, that is fine with me.

I would hate to see what our country would be like if Christians came under attack for playing guitars, and praying 24/7 for the release of women held hostage in Afghanistan.

Be thankful that these hippie throwbacks are sparing us the unplesantry of having to view their filth.

[biblewonk]

You may not like people who practice different religions, but you do have to live in the same nation. When you use the coercive powers of the state to suppress them, you undermine our polity. When you undermine our polity you destabilize our government. An unstable government is not something I want about now. How about you?

Perhaps you've never heard of the ACLU or the NEA or any of those other groups who hate Christianity and yet want to force me to send my kids to 12 years of public/government school.

[ArGee]

The Leavenworth County commissioners denied the renewal for the permit, issued six years ago, in late October after a community petition raised accusations that the retreat fostered public nudity, pedophilia, and illegal drug and alcohol use. Neighbors also expressed concern about devil worship.

Sometimes people can be so stupid! I hope this petition wasn't circulated by some local pastor, but I'm afraid it probably was.

Public nudity? Not if it was on the private grounds. That's the difference between public and private. Don't want to look at nude witches? Don't trespass.

Pedophilia? If you can prove it, don't close the center, prosecute the pedophiles and I hope they rot in jail.

Illegal drug and alcohol use? If it's drug use, prove it and prosecute. If it's alcohol use, there's not much use of alcohol that is illegal as long as you're not driving.

Devil worship? If these neighbors are truly Christian there is nothing to fear from devil worship. Let them beat their brains out. Besides, that's a freedom of religion issue and there should rightly be nothing you can do about it - as long as nobody is sacrificing people.

As the professor in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe stated so well, "What do they teach them in these schools?"

(Boy, I hope none of the petitioners were home-schooled.)

Shalom.

[biblewonk]

By extension of your "logic", if you are naked in the shower at the gym or naked at your doctors office, or even naked in your own back yard you are guilty of public nudity.

You know I'm not saying that so now who is lying about whom.

[occam's chainsaw]

There is nothing wrong with any of these things to a witch.

There is (apparently) also no proof that any of these activities are actually occurring. According to the article:
The retreat denies any illegal activity, and county officials say there is no evidence of any.

Are you suggesting that rumors of illegal activity should be enough reason for county officials to shut them down ?

Where's the beef?

[All-American Medic]

No but the issue here is, people like you are using the government to silence something you dont like. That is a very dangerous precedent.