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LSJohn: Been thinking over our recent dicussion. In effect, I told you "not to worry" if the present administration is clamping down on the civil rights of non-Americans. On further reflection, however, I realize that my analysis can only hold water if we are engaged in a just war, conducted by a just administration. This is the assumption that drives the analysis: The validity of the conclusion I came to depends on the assumption being true in the first place.

So just to have some fun with a "thought experiment," and to "humor" you, I decided to play devil's advocate, and try a different assumption, and see where it leads.

For that purpose, I put on "the Left Progressive hat" (i.e., positivist, materialist, atheist, utilitarian -- we're talking Comte and Marx here), and tried to figure how the question would fall out under that conceptual framework. That meant I had to dust off the old "leftist playbook." Here's how that game of "incrementalism" would go, in all probability (given we have a decent body of historical evidence that bears on this phenomenon to judge by, by now):

(1) First, Americans are effectively persuaded that deprivation of civil rights can only happen to non-citizen "aliens" -- ones who look to be "terrorists." American citizens are told that our Bill of Rights liberties could never be taken way from us. We buy it.

This would be the opening "camel's nose under the tent."

(2) But come's a time when the camel "gets into bed with you": Contemporaneous with this promise -- which has been successfully sold to, and accepted by, "public opinion" -- is at least the rumor I've heard that the FBI has actually been working on a "profile" of the "domestic terrorist." (Presumably, the "domestic" part intends actual citizens.)

Now that profile -- Items on the list: A citizen who studies, discusses, and/or quotes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights a lot. (Strike 1.) A citizen that questions the authoritative (constitutional) basis of any public official or public order (or heaven forfend, withholds a portion of his income tax payments on grounds of conscience). (Strike 2.) A citizen who possesses firearms of any description. (Steeeee-riiiiiike 3 -- You're OUT!)

There's more on that list, I gather. But enuf said.

(3) So now all the gummint would have to do is find that, well, (1 above) was "all about terrorists" in the first place. So, since this is a "global war on terrorism," we got "to stamp out our own home-grown variety or we'll never finish the job." (The public will buy that, too -- in due course. Just stage an event -- like the Murrah Building -- to demonstrate the wisdom of this course.)

And thereby Americans can be safely relegated into a more-or-less permanent serfdom. With their own approval.

Well, whatever you think of my humble little exercise, I did try to see the problem from a different point of view! :^)

But I'm still where I was before, LSJohn: I STILL have more questions than answers. So we're in the same boat it seems. I guess all we really can do is keep our eyes wide open; and raise bloody hell, en masse if at all possible (there being strength in numbers they say), if need be.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. All my best -- bb.

--I think you're geting a better handle on it with your #83. The so called 'war powers act" is one of the more reprehensible abominations ever writ and used as an excuse for anything in our country. All it is is a word twisters guild attempt at excusing and profiteering from dictatorship in defiance of our real historical basic written in english law. It's a sick perversion, I will have no truck with it.

The perpetuation of it is one of the fundamental reasons we have so many other problems, and will continue to have problems, with government in general.

----generic rant time----- "Government" dropped the ball on heading off and preventing the attacks on 9-11. There ya go. The ball dropped so hard it went flat, and the court is cracked. There is ample data to show they were warned, in various ways and in various manners, well in advance of the attacks. "Government" has been aware of the continuuing presence of these "jihaders" here, and did little of anything to stop them in advance of the attacks. They actually PROMOTED them into the country, by the zillions! One of their prime directives or something. Multiculturalism and so called 'free trade' and 'engagement" or whatever. They-the jihaders- haven't even been remotely secretive about their intentions. The videos of their inflammatory speeches in the domestic mosques and islamic centers in the US is known to them. The foreign fatwahs declaration of wars and previous attacks are in the HUNDREDS now, around the world, including agasinst us, several times now. the wtc and pentagon is just a big example of what has been going on for years. Something really NEW here to see? it's BIGGER than the last attacks, but really no different. What, this all of a sudden snuck up on these politician bozos? They declared war on us a long time ago, but other matters were too important for government to address than those declaration of war against us. We are supposed to widely cheer on decades of incompetence. Like, we pay them trillions, and their excuse is they didn't get an ambassadorial level gilt edged parchment presented with high drama on the whitehouse lawn saying on 9-11 they would be attacking such and such. Phooie, that ain't the real world, as some folks like to quote. In the real world, if you get plenty of advance notice, you head them off at the pass, you don't wait until AFTER they rob the bank, sack the town and rape the school marm. The new 'sheriff' we got has been asleep at his desk for too long, the big loud noise woke him up, the previous sheriff spent all his time drinking and gamblin and whorin around, the sheriff before that was too interested in crooked business deals, including quite a few business deals with the same basic gang of mad jihaders who are nutcases on the loose overseas and over here now. A lot of his boys are now 'advisors' to the new sheriff. Gee, wonder why the jihader gang was ignored so much? This is upposed to be ok because the new sheriffs wife wears lovely pearls and happens to be a different person than the last whorin sheriffs wife? This is important, an excuse? howzzat again? That's the real world we got, bozo incompetents and crooks.

Concerned citizens have warned them. A lot of their own competent and honest and patriotic employees warned them , and they got told to IGNORE IT by the bozo sheriffs. They keep being warned, but for some reason they keep screwing their own honest employees who are trying to do their jobs effectively. We ain't supposed to be smelling rats here? The jihaders own statements and previous actions in advance of 9-11 warned them. The WTC building was previously attacked, to great destructive effects, including heinous terroristic loss of life, by a bomb, and they had government agents and snitches inserted into the very terr cell itself, and STILL, they failed to act in accordance to their primary sheriff duties, which were to secure the integrity of the nations boundaries, and to provide the necessary protections that they are able to provide, using the more than adequate tools ALLOWED them. They are paid extremely well, they got perks like no other human on the planet has ever gotten, they got plenty of notice, all the airconditioned offices they can sit their butts in, all the government vehicles they can ride around in and gas to burn they could want, all the fancy diplomatic chow they can shovel in, you name it, it's been provided to them, and on and on and on and they SCREWED UP ROYAL. That doesn't deserve massive flag waving in support of! It deserves a kick in the can and getting fired, retroactively, too.

They have no need for additional tools, they have shown to be careless with the tools they have now. Reckless, irresponsible, there is NOTHING praiseworthy in any of their actions to date. Nothing they have done in the past warrants rewarding them with "more power", they have abused to the max already, so many examples it would take reams to list-we explore them all the time on this website. This is the PRIMARY reason for this websites existence in fact., to address that, point out all the examples, and seek ways to deal with it, not excuse it and make it worse that it already is!. They seek to use the politicians most used trick-the misdirection-to divert blame and exposure.

Yes, it's quite possible to use torture to extract a "confession" to use as proof of a crime-ask the captured airmen of the korean and viet nam wars about that. If you torture a human being, they will most likely tell you anything you want to hear eventually, makes no difference what they did or didn't do. It's also possible to merely pass an edict that such and such is the data, and because it's "official", then it becomes more "proof". A truly guilty person as well as a totally innocent person may both be tortured, both might be found guilty of the crime based on these proofs. both may have only limited evidence shown in their defense, or no evidence, or manufactured evidence against them, or collective evidence. You are a "jew" so you are guilty. You are a member of such and such a race, so you are guilty. the other side in this current war considers all of us "guilty' by their standards. Should we drop to those levels?.

Many governments do this, most do actually, it's routine, and we LAUGH at them, because they deserve it!. Zimbabwe does this now, it does not make it any better if we do such, no matter today's reason, however "justifiable". We should not be emulating these tyrannical governments in technique. We can be strong and defend ourselves without that. It's more than possible, and I contend it's desirable as well.

We long ago agreed to give up some amount of "total nanny state, bigbro watch over his little chilluns, now do as he say chillub" style "security" in exchange for a strict limit on government, those wise people noticing that in the long run that was a better idea, as this "no holds barred, no limits" type government were the ONLY other previous models they had to look at, THEY SUCK BIGTIME, and those previous models were rejected as being just 'wrong" as they had always become highly abusive, no exceptions, so we done thunk up a new way to do it, and some want to go back to those old stoopid ways.

There's a very old adage that fits, two really. .. the road to hell is paved with good intentions. and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Anyone can understand these two concepts.

We are right this second breaking those adages. Pages and reams of laws are almost all contained in old human sayings of universal truths, fancy guys just stetch them out a lot, but they can all be condensed down pretty good. The ten commandments, the golden rule, these two old sayings I quoted. It makes things easier to understand sometimes to get back to the basics.

We can fight the war against the terrorists most effectively without adding to the executive branches powers, there is zero need for it, and the potentials for abuse are much worse than even the lives of the slain 6000 represent. sorry, but it's true, and I'll say it out loud right now. The opposite is maintaining that we CAN'T fight the terrorists without these abusive new "laws", and I contend that's beyond pussy, excuse the slang. we are supposed to believe by these new dictatorial laws adherent's that we are trembling incompetent nanny-boys without these new laws, that they are "necessary', that we "can't fight terrorism" without them. Says who, really, says who? Where's the proof of that, where's the beef? We are so WEAK we need "new dictator laws"-"secret military tribunals" whatever other politician-dictator buzz word crap they want to call it, to fight these jerks? Huh? Someone is telling me I got to eat that crap because without it we can't beat some freeking goatherders over there or here, using our laws we got already? Double huh? Says who again? Pretty chicken squat pansy point of view really, if ya ask me. "Ohh, I'm so scared of the boogey man mad jihaders that I'm willing to give up everything we have in order to be safe from e-vile mad jihader nail clippers, please hide the bogey men away from me on some island where I won't get the swooning vapors being close to them". Phooie, there it is in straight talk. The politicians call that "getting tough", I say right back in their freaking faces I call it "covering your a$$ and your buddy buddy other politicians a$$ from past fooling around and not taking care of business" wussin out, swapping being a wuss, and endangering your childrens freedoms down the road, so you can be an internet and tv celebrity political pseudo macho man star now. Double phooie.. rah, rah BLAH.

Maybe not exactly right now, or exactly tomorrow, but it's the nature of the chimeric government-beast to never let go of anything once it's been seized and used extensively. It has an insatiable appetite, it feeds on raw power, and once eaten it can't give it back. Jihaders today, "constitution spouting whackos who defy authority "gun nuts" and "lowr-n-orderzz"-mostly orders- sometime tomorrow. It'll happen, have no doubt. It has always happened before in history, any nation that went down that path. We can be just like any other strange country that doesn't care, pick one at random, it doesn't matter, just bigger and better armed, or we have a chance to go back to the "new fangled" way of 'govdernment' that we invented, to be uniquely different.

I really don't want to see just a modern day version of what imperial and strong but wussy effete rome was. I like the older but still "new fangled" way we had, and are in imminent danger of losing. The rest of the world has juntas, secret military courts, summary executions, torturted confessions-screw that, we came up with a better way, a different idea, totally different, and it WORKED when we stuck to it, we don't emulate those other ways, they should strive to emulate us instead. Ya, it's slower, so what? Really, so what? It's better in the long run. I like "better", to me that is of more worth than just "faster".