Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I got it.
Sir, you already mischaracterized my words, accused me of mishandling the word of God which to me is a sore blow indeed. Then you ask? I am beside myself. The very attacks I abhor I am now partaking in. I am here to seek the truth and will not lower myself to this level of discourse. When I post a scripture I expect it to be pondered in thoughtful manner by thoughtful people. You are free to interpret them as you see fit but don't assume how I would interpret the same. To your own self be true.
Even Pitt managed to win their second game this year. Oh, to play Temple every week. :-)
Tonight should be rocking. The only thing more rare than a Steeler loss in prime time is a Steeler loss at home in prime time.
Any of you guys watch the World Series? What's with that Counsell player? He looks like he has muscular dystrophy or something the way he waits for the pitch.
SD
I have often thought what a great tool this thread is for the Catholics to develop their doctrine and clean it up for later use, what other forum gives them every possible argument against their beliefs, but still is known by such a small hand full of people.
Can you see their monks pouring over these threads saying, Hey, here is an angle I never thought of, or that was a good argument so and so made on that point, or let's feed this in to them and see how it flies. (^g^) JH
Jim, there is nothing new under the sun. The Vatican is free to take whatever ideas it likes from the likes of us, but I seriously doubt they need it.
Now, the other Christians and Catholics to whom we give witness are the real beneficiaries.
SD
How So? That IS the teaching of the Catholic Church. I merely took that teaching to its logical conclusion.
Ooh. Bold prediction.
Any of you guys watch the World Series? What's with that Counsell player? He looks like he has muscular dystrophy or something the way he waits for the pitch.
Everybody else is saying he's the new "Mr. October" and now you've got him in the special olympics. :-)
Then he says that Purgatory is a "work" of the person in Purgatory. I again ask for proof of what he claims is Catholic teaching...
I understand what he means...at least I think I do. He can correct me if I'm wrong. When he calls purgatory a "work," he means as opposed to *grace*. The "purity" which is supposed to result from purgatory is NOT a gift of God (grace), but is something the person achieves by suffering. It is a work as opposed to being something that God simply *gives* you.
You have this exactly backwards, as is usual. The cleansing in Purgatory is entirely due to grace. The suffering which we may feel is a result of the cleansing, not the cause of it. This is how far away we are, in your attempt to make us Pelagian, you see our doctrine backwards.
It is not God saying "We will make them suffer, this will have the effect of purifying them."
Rather it is "We will purify them, it may make them suffer, but it is for the good."
SD
I'm glad they were playing the Cardinals. Otherwise, the outcome probably would've been much different.
I'm not sure who Willhelm is or was, but if his writings were pulled because some of his facts turned out to be lies or fiction, then you seem to be saying everything in the book was a lie, therefore if a lie is found in any writing, it follows that the whole of the writings should be thrown out.
Ok, I guess I will start going back over some of the early church fathers writings again, and start with Ignatius.(^g^)
From the gospel according to Polonius?
Your "purgatory" took place on Calvary? I fear you don't know what purgatory is. Answer me this: are you now perfect, without any sin, desire to sin, selfishness, anything unholy?
Of course I am not sinless. As long as I live in this body of flesh, it will "set its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh" (Gal. 5:17).
OK. Not now perfect. Check.
And I know what "purgatory" is supposed to be. But it isn't real, SD. There is no such place or experience.
Then you go to heaven dirty?
There is heaven, and there is hell, there is no in-between. I was saying that my CLEANSING (as in purgatory) took place at the cross where Christ suffered the penalty and punishment for my sins and for my impurity.
That was a long time ago. If the cleansing "took place" (note past tense) at Calvary, why are you not clean?
Even now, the effects of His death are still working, for the Holy Spirit says through John that "the blood of Jesus Christ His Son is cleansing us from sin." (John 1:7-9).
Now we're getting somewhere. "Is cleansing" is indicative of a process still occuring. When will it be finished?
As ksen said, "the animal sacrifices of the OT never actually took away sin; they merely covered them until Jesus came and performed the perfect sacrifice which did not just cover sin, but actually did away with the sin." Ksen supported what he said by quoting a passage from Hebrews 10 where Christ says to the Father, "Behold, I have come to do Thy will, O God." Then in v. 10: "By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." And v. 12-14: "And every priest stands daily, ministering and offering the same sacrifices which can never take away sins: But this man (Jesus Christ) after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God...For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." Cogitate on this passage, Dave...mull it over and over. Let the truth sink in----there is no need for purgatory. Jesus paid it ALL.
Typical ignorance. I thought you said above you understood Purgatory. It is not a work we do, it is the process whereby the fruits of Christ's sacrifice are applied to us, to purify us. Mull that over. Let the truth sink in. If your cleansing is not finished while you are alive, it will be finished after you die and before you go to Heaven. Jesus paid it ALL.
SD
But one would actually have to care about the Pack to understand the joke. ;o)
And Randy Johnson is no Mr. Universe ... but they are beating the Yanks! Go D'Backs!!!
I've been watching. I'll repeat what I said last week. Schilling is one helluva pitcher. And Johnson was near-unhittable last night. He didn't reach 100 pitches until the eighth inning! One of these guys is going to have to lose a game for the Yankees to win the series. New York takes Game 3, and also Game 4 if Schilling doesn't pitch.
Ahhh, the ends justify the means, is that a Catholic doctrine now?(^g^)
It does not follow that one blemish makes a work unreliable. It all depends on what the blemish is. I could write a great book about how we need to follow Jesus and emulate Him and have belief in Him. With one error. This error could be that I think Jesus was a second God. This is a pretty grave error and casts into doubt the entire work, indeed all of my works. Or my error could be much smaller, in which case the bulk of the book could still be useful.
In the Willhelm case he is a post-Vatican II scholar who went off the deep end in saying that we can't know if Hell is everlasting. This casts a huge doubt over everything he says.
SD
ksen, did you say this?
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