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To: SoothingDave
As for the Catholic, you miss the word "visible." I know you don't really care, but this Catholic "longs" for all who know God to unite and become a part of the "one visible Church." I know the identity of this Church. What is longed for is the unity Christ intended.

I missed nothing. What John Paul II did was say something and then put into practice. How do you explain koran-kissing and the interreligious Spirit of Assisi prayer sessions? It is quite obvious from his words, the words of Vatican II, and his actions that the unity they are pursuing is a sort of mega-religion, not founded on Divine Truth, but on what people decide will be truth.

Come on, even the Masons are down with the post-conciliar program.

Remember, Vatican II affirmed that the Church of Christ "subsisted in" the Catholic Church. That is heresy: the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church.

That's Feenyism. There are those saved who are "invincibly ignorant" of the need for the formal Church. They stay part of the mystical Church. Hence, the word "subsists."

Sorry, I'm not buying it. Fr. Feeney goes as far as saying the water baptism is necessary for salvation. That's where I draw the line.

But first, let's show Dave how this "invincibly ignorant" concept is a problem. Here are three infallible declarations which back up the truth that the true Church of Christ is the Catholic Church:

The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her. . . No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, 1441)

There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VII, Unam Sanctam, 1302).

Now, please tell me how invicible ignorance can be exception to the rule when the idea that "Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ" has already been condemned by the Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors (see Proposition #17)

As far as I see it, too many people give the "invincible ignorance" clause a little too much elasticity. When one starts going down the slippery slope, one inevitably arrives at a heresy called universal salvation.

340 posted on 05/20/2003 2:20:04 PM PDT by huskyboy (Introibo ad altare Dei; non ad altare hominis!)
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To: huskyboy
As far as I see it, too many people give the "invincible ignorance" clause a little too much elasticity. When one starts going down the slippery slope, one inevitably arrives at a heresy called universal salvation.

Surprise! I agree. But that is different from saying that there is no one who was ever saved through invincible ignorance. And that even one person who was saved though not a formal member of the "Church" was nonetheless a member of the mystical Church.

So the idea that the two are equivalent goes "poof!" The true Church must subsist in the Catholic Church.

It is quite obvious from his words, the words of Vatican II, and his actions that the unity they are pursuing is a sort of mega-religion, not founded on Divine Truth, but on what people decide will be truth.

It takes an incredible ideological filter to read the Papacy of Dominus Iesus the way you do. This Pope has affirmed the unicity and universality of the Catholic Church, made care to distinguish other "churches" from mere "ecclesial communions" and addressed the absolute need for Jesus and the Catholic Church as the instrument of salvation.

SD

341 posted on 05/20/2003 2:24:36 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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