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To: Jean Chauvin; Pony Express; xzins
I also see the word foreknowledge of God, gee, do you think God foreknew what their free will decisions would be in rejecting their Messiah? " No, the text does not say anything about "free will decisions". You're, once again, adding that into the text because you don't like what it says.

Foreknowledge means to know something before it happens, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father(1Pet.1:2, Rom.8:29)

1 Peter 1 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, The Scriptures are CLEAR that Jesus Christ's work was pre-determined by the will of God and the hands that carried out the murder of the Christ were "wicked".

Gee, I do not read foreknew in 1Pet.1:20, I see foreordained.

You must be running to the Greek again or another translation. The NASB translates 1Pet.1:20 as foreknown.

But the NIV translates it as chosen , as does the CEV,NCV,NLT.

How about pre-1611? The only one that translated the word as foreknown was the Roman Catholic (Pelegian!) Douey Rheims version.

Even the Calvinistic Geneva has ordained, not foreknown.

(aside to ponnyespresso: The Greek word for "foreknow" is proginosko. It is precisely the same word the KJV translates "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1)

Aside to Jean the word is Foreordained because of its context as noted by other versions who translated it as chosen.

For example, find me a modern translation that has the 'correct' English number for Matthew 28:1 Sabbath when the 'Greek' is in the plural not the singular.

Due to context the singular is correct as is the Greek text in the plural (there were two Sabbaths that week)

"Yours, sad to say, isn't." Oooooooooh! Goooooood come back! LOL!

Typical Calvinistic 'scholarship'.

As applied to redemption this would mean that in election God has decided to save those who accept His Son and the preoffered salvation and in forordination He has determined effectively to accomplish that purpose. (Thiessen, Lectures in Systematic Theology, p.345)

Only a Calvinist would think that God would 'decree' that which He condemns as being evil, yet is what He really wants!

Your 'faith' sounds more like Hinduism, where 'good' and 'evil' blend into one.

195 posted on 02/12/2003 2:14:03 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; ponyespresso; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
"Foreknowledge means to know something before it happens, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father(1Pet.1:2, Rom.8:29)"

"Foreknowledge" of what????

The text simply does not say "men's free-will decisions". How ~convenient~ of you to add that into the text. I would have just as much legitimacy to insist that Christ's task was based on God's foreknowledge that a Dutch Belted Cow has a big black band of fur around it's midsection as you have insisting that Christ's task was based on God's foreknowledge of men's free-will decisions.

No, your insistance on adding "of men's free-will actions" to "foreknowledge" is based on your inability to philisophically reconcile that men are responsible for their free-will actions while God ordains all events to occur. That is the clear declaration of Acts 2:23! Yet, you deny it! But, let's see how experts (i.e. certainly ~not~ you!) define "foreknowledge" and "foreknow":

According to Crosswalk.Com:

Foreknowledge (prognosis) means:

1. foreknowledge
2. forethought, pre-arrangement

Since there is no object of "foreknowledge" in the Acts 2:23 text, I would think the context would dictate that "foreknowledge" means "pre-arrangement". I do know for certain that it does NOT mean "to pre-know men's free-will actions or decisions." Why? Because it simply doesn't say that! You are adding that to the text because you don't like the ramifications of the only alternative.

Foreknow (proginosko) means:

1. to have knowledge before hand
2. to foreknow
a. of those whom God elected to salvation
3. to predestinate

Again, in the 1 Peter 1:20 passage, there is no object of "proginosko", therefore, the context would seem to indicate that definition 3 is the proper translation. And thus the KJV translators correctly translate "forordained" in this passage.

However, if we go to 2 Peter 3:17, we see another use of "proginosko". But we note that there is an object of the "pre-knowing": "these things"

Therefore, the context indicates that this "proginosko" is simply to "to have knowledge before hand" or to "know before" as the KJV translators correctly translated.

Jean

199 posted on 02/12/2003 4:04:40 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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