God's Part and Man's Part in Salvation

John G. Reisinger ^ | John G. Reisinger

[Jean Chauvin]

You have simply demonstrated that what Acts 2:23 CLEARLY declares does not fit your philisophical ideals.

Your argument had little to do with actual Scripture and more to do with a philisophical understanding. You are dealing, not with what Scripture declares, but with hypotheticals.

I'll stick with what the scripture clearly declares!

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

You have simply demonstrated that what Acts 2:23 CLEARLY declares does not fit your philisophical ideals.

Your argument had little to do with actual Scripture and more to do with a philisophical understanding. You are dealing, not with what Scripture declares, but with hypotheticals.

I'll stick with what the scripture clearly declares!

Jean

[rwfromkansas]

You are good friends with Phil Keaggy? Wow. If you don't mind, I would love for you to pass my comments on about his song "Under the Grace."

Usually I don't go for real slow Christian music like Keaggy has, but I will say, this is one of the best songs out there in the Contemporary Christian scene....one that makes me so frustrated because I fail so much...I don't fall asleep crying over my salvation and my sin and this song just makes me so aware of how an ungrateful and pathetic person I am compared with God's greatness:

Under The Grace - Phil Keaggy

I lie awake in the middle of the night again
I try to make some sense of it all rushing in
There's so much I feel within this heart of mine
I well up inside and my eyes, they overflow
For I know, it is grace

The look of love in the shape of your face I have known
It speaks of this deep sacrifice you have shown
And the wonder of it all is, I didn't deserve this
I couldn't have planned it so right
And so my eyes, they overflow
Let it rain, let it pour, let it go
For I know this, yes I know - it is grace

And the hungry in heart seeks for its place and a home
But it may tear you apart when you see
What this grace here has done
Fly, fly all you burdens - go fly away
It's here I remain - under the grace

It seems there's so little time to make amends here
If not for you, will then I'm without a friend here

[rwfromkansas]

And who opened your heart, nobodys? THE ALMIGHTY....:)

That is all we Calvinists are trying to get across.....we are nothing without God and we would be so lost in our own sin our futile attempts at seeing any good in him would end up producing no fruit. We are so blinded until the Holy Spirit removes the film from our eyes so that we can see and we see the joy in Christ!! We see it!!! But only because He OPENED our blinded eyes.

[rwfromkansas]

In my own little feeble attempt at supporting predestination (it actually comes out to be 15 pages double-spaced though in Word surprisingly enough), I spend a lot of time on prevenient grace. I see it as an extremely dangerous idea when used as the Wesleyans use it. I did not focus on the broader sense that you are speaking of it though, in which it simply means the HS doing something, no matter how small, before we could come to Christ. In the Wesleyan construction, where the HS does a "partial conversion" and calls it quits, relying on man's will for the rest, it is just so incredibly absurd and blows completely apart the idea that only a complete transformation can change the heart of man. With prevenient grace, the heart of man just needs a little doctoring and that is enough. I vehemently disagree with that; the heart is so corrupted the HS has to do it all. Anyway, I hope you understand what I am saying about the more narrow Wesleyan use of the doctrine.

BTW, I don't know if you read my update post on the "friendship" thread I posted, but I went out to eat with that girl the other day and it went VERY well, much better than the date. I can hardly recall any periods of silence and she even laughed a few times when I managed to think of at least a few things to say that were funny. I am happy that we appear to be on the road to being pretty good friends. Also, last night, I went to the college dance after the Bible study (my roommate wanted me to go for one thing and I agreed, so I couldn't back out at the end or that would basically have been a lie). It was a BLAST. I got to dance with 2 girls (one was like a foot taller than me and I am 5'5", so that was an experience). Once I loosened up, I danced some to the faster dances. Today, a guy down the hall stopped me and said he saw me at the dance and that I was a really awesome dancer. I asked him if he was serious since I had a hard time believing him, but he said he was deadly serious. Anyway.

/end of thread going off course

[ponyespresso]

I tend to believe that Gods anger was before the actual event..probably as He planned creation..that does not make it any less real or less a threat to the people involved..BUT ..He made a resolution to his anger (much like one of us telling our misbehaving kid they can come out of their room if they say sorry)..He resolved the anger by foreordaining the desire to pray by Moses..

Maybe what I am struggling with here is the difference between foreknowledge of a specific event and foreordination of a specific event. Which is why, IMHO, this discussion about the Book of Numbers is not comparable to any discussion of Christ's death on the cross. Christ, the sinless Lamb, HAD to be slain as an offering; the price HAD to be paid. Moses, however, did not HAVE to enter Canaan (indeed, he did not). But, my question is, when the LORD chose Moses, did He know that Moses would strike the rock twice, thus incurring God's wrath and preventing Moses from entering Canaan.

But ineffect you are..If God had destroyed the nation of Israel then the entire plan of Salvation would have had to be changed..

"and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." Matt. 3:9

I think that if God had indeed destroyed the nation of Israel, somehow He would have figured out a way to still make the plan of Salvation work.

Pony this was all about God's glory at this point..those that had no faith in Him and were not obedient were not to occupy the land...PERIOD..

Well, no, I think it ends up with God's glory, but it starts with choice, doesn't it? When that generation of Israelites left Egypt, did they or did they not have the opportunity to inherit the land of Canaan? If not, was it because God foreknew they would not or is it because God foreordained they could not?

[RnMomof7]

Maybe what I am struggling with here is the difference between foreknowledge of a specific event and foreordination of a specific event. Which is why, IMHO, this discussion about the Book of Numbers is not comparable to any discussion of Christ's death on the cross. Christ, the sinless Lamb, HAD to be slain as an offering; the price HAD to be paid. Moses, however, did not HAVE to enter Canaan (indeed, he did not). But, my question is, when the LORD chose Moses, did He know that Moses would strike the rock twice, thus incurring God's wrath and preventing Moses from entering Canaan.

Did God foreknow that Moses would not enter and Joshua would? I suggest you look to the name and the typeology of Joshua

[ponyespresso]

God's wrath was just and would have been carried out if not for Moses prayer. Without Moses prayer surely God would have dispossed Israel. Considering that God is a person with emotions and that circumstances warrant an emotional reaction then some additional circumstances may warrant a different reaction. So, circumstance A (C1) warrants action A (A1) but then circumstance B in relation to circumstance A(C2A) warrants a different action (A2). Without circumstance (C2A) {Moses prayer} then God would have most certainly carried out action A1 (disposses Israel).

This is what I would think too. But, then what are the ramifications of this, specifically is the future set in stone or are there many different possibilities for what tomorrow holds?

I know that the LORD has a specific plan for the cumulation of history, or else I would just have to rip the Book of Revelation out of my Bible (God forbid, lol!) So, while the destination is clear, is there one specific highway to get there or are there several, but all arriving at the same pre-determined destination?

Or, to put it another way, when an orchistra sets out to play a sympony (Bethoven's Fifth, for example) every single note has been laid out before the performance; every note, every rest, every accent, every creshendo, everything is specifically marked. However, when a jazz band gets together to play Charlie Parker's Ornithology, they know the key, roughly the tempo, and the major changes in the piece, but each player is allowed (indeed, encouraged) to contribute something different to the piece than what Charlie had written. But, in the end, it still sounds like Ornithology.

So, I guess my question is, does God write classical music or jazz?

[RnMomof7]

"and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." Matt. 3:9

What tribe was Moses from? What tribe was Joshua from? Do either meet the prophecies?

That question is not was God able ..the question was WHAT DID GOD WILL?

Did either meet the plan laid before the foundation of the earth?

I will ask you again pony...If God is not immutible in His decisions..If God changes His mind ..what assurance do you have that your salvation is secure..could it be He will "change the plan" and you will not "fit"

[RnMomof7]

I know that the LORD has a specific plan for the cumulation of history, or else I would just have to rip the Book of Revelation out of my Bible (God forbid, lol!) So, while the destination is clear, is there one specific highway to get there or are there several, but all arriving at the same pre-determined destination?

How could God be sure you are going to take the right road?

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[ponyespresso]

Yes, God 'foreknew' both, but God did not cause both! The issue is Omniscience which knows all the possible as well as the actual. What that generation was going to do was always foreknown by God, but they did not have to choose as they did. Had they chosen correctly God would have had another plan for them.

I mean, lets be honest, the LORD never said which generation of the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would enter Canaan. I don't think, though I might be wrong, that the LORD ever promised Moses that he would actually enter Canaan, either. So, really, in this situation God's promise would have been kept if that generation did enter the promised land, just as it was kept as the next generation entered the promised land, right?

What the LORD does say to that generation that left Egypt, however, is that "none of the people who have seen my glory and the signs that I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have tested me these ten times and have not obeyed my voice, shall see the land that I swore to give to their ancestors; none of those who despised me shall see it. Num. 14:22,23

The reason that that generation is not entering Canaan is not because God had it in for them at the outset, that God foreordained them to grumble in the wilderness, but simply that they did not obey the voice of the LORD, correct?

I guess the concept of the punishment of the LORD is also something we might discuss; i.e. why does the LORD choose the method of punishment that He does? Why, when both Miriam and Aaron speak against Moses, why was only Miriam made leprous and Aaron was not (Num 12:1-16)? And, why does the LORD only give leprosy to those who speak against His chosen instrument (Moses), while a man who simply gathers sticks on the Sabbath the LORD commands to stone to death (Num. 15:32-36)?

And, ultimately, if the LORD really wanted to see that generation in Canaan, could He or could He not have come up with a punishment that would have both quelled His wrath and also allowed that generation entry into the promised land? So, maybe, God did have it in for them at the outset after all.

[RnMomof7]

I mean, lets be honest, the LORD never said which generation of the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would enter Canaan.

Yes He did....are you a pastor?

[RnMomof7]

What the LORD does say to that generation that left Egypt, however, is that "none of the people who have seen my glory and the signs that I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have tested me these ten times and have not obeyed my voice, shall see the land that I swore to give to their ancestors; none of those who despised me shall see it. Num. 14:22,23

There are Jewish scholars that believe God never intended to have that generation enter because they had always lived as slaves and had a "slave mentality"

[ponyespresso]

What tribe was Moses from? What tribe was Joshua from? Do either meet the prophecies?

What specific prophecies are you talking about? Scripture please.

That question is not was God able ..the question was WHAT DID GOD WILL? Did either meet the plan laid before the foundation of the earth?

I seems to me, and I might be wrong, that God willed that the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob enter the land of Canaan. The LORD was not specific about which generation that would be (though, I quite possibly be wrong, so, if I am, please provide me the Scriptures that specifically mention this).

So, RnMomof7, do you think that that promise could have been fulfilled by either that specific generation of Israelites that left Egypt as well as the generation after them that did actually enter Canaan and fulfil God's promise?

I will ask you again pony...If God is not immutible in His decisions..If God changes His mind ..what assurance do you have that your salvation is secure..could it be He will "change the plan" and you will not "fit"

God did not change His mind about the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob inheriting the land of Canaan, did He? No, of course not. The LORD is faithful to His promises, right? And this promise was fulfilled, right? So, just the details remain; couldn't the first generation of Israelites who left Egypt just have accurately fulfilled God's promise as the second?

[ponyespresso]

I mean, lets be honest, the LORD never said which generation of the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would enter Canaan.

Yes He did....

Scripture please.

...are you a pastor?

No, but why does it matter to this discussion?

[RnMomof7]

The prophecy ( of the plan developed before the foundation of the earth) said the Saviour was the Lion of Judah...Son of David..not from the tribe of Levi

(though, I quite possibly be wrong, so, if I am, please provide me the Scriptures that specifically mention this).

God is always specific

Read Gen 15...they would enter the land in the 4th generation

Not the third..not the 5th...the fourth...

Joshua was born "Hoshea" (salvation) but Moses changed his name to "Yehoshua" (Yahweh is salvation). This is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek name "Iesous" (Jesus). His name is symbolic of the fact that although he is the leader of the Israelite nation during the conquest, the Lord is the Conqueror.

So do you ~think~ God had a plan?

[Seven_0]

"God is always specific
Read Gen 15...they would enter the land in the 4th generation
Not the third..not the 5th...the fourth... "

The Fourth generation seems specific enough. Question, who is the first? I think that the children of Israel entered the promised land around Salmon, because he married Rachab. He is the tenth generation from Abraham.

[fortheDeclaration]

And, ultimately, if the LORD really wanted to see that generation in Canaan, could He or could He not have come up with a punishment that would have both quelled His wrath and also allowed that generation entry into the promised land? So, maybe, God did have it in for them at the outset after all.

God is a Holy God and there is always a limit to His forebearance.(Gen.6:3)

As for the different punishments, they deal with particular violations.

Regarding Miriam she could have been the leader in the grumblng (Aaron being pretty much of a follower), hence she received the blunt of the punishment. Aaron asked Moses to pray for both of them, so a punishment seemed to be facing Aaron.

Breaking the Sabbath was a rejection of God's provision and thus, rebellion (1Sam.15:23) as was cursing the Lord (Lev.24:10-14)

[fortheDeclaration]

You have simply demonstrated that what Acts 2:23 CLEARLY declares does not fit your philisophical ideals. Your argument had little to do with actual Scripture and more to do with a philisophical understanding. You are dealing, not with what Scripture declares, but with hypotheticals. I'll stick with what the scripture clearly declares!

LOL!

Acts 2:23 states Foreknowledge as in knowing something before something else.

Now, just because the Greek word in 1Pet.1:20 is translated as Foreordain (correctly) does not mean that the Greek word (Proginosko) means foreordain anywhere else!

Context gives meanings to words.

That same Proginosko is also used in two other verses

Which knew me from the beginning if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee (Acts.26:5)

and 2Pet.3:17

Ye therefore beloved seeing ye know these things before beware lest ye also, being led away with error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Now, both of the verses have the same Greek word found in 1Pet.1:20, are they to be translated as saying forordained?

[fortheDeclaration]

This is John Wesley's view on 1Pet.1:2

2 According to the foreknowledge of God - Speaking after the manner of men. Strictly speaking, there is no foreknowledge, no more than afterknowledge, with God: but all things are known to him as present from eternity to eternity. This is therefore no other than an instance of the divine condescension to our low capacities.

Elect - By the free love and almighty power of God taken out of, separated from, the world. Election, in the scripture sense, is God's doing anything that our merit or power have no part in. The true predestination, or fore - appointment of God is,

He that believeth shall be saved from the guilt and power of sin.

He that endureth to the end shall be saved eternally.

They who receive the precious gift of faith, thereby become the sons of God; and, being sons, they shall receive the Spirit of holiness to walk as Christ also walked.

Throughout every part of this appointment of God, promise and duty go hand in hand. All is free gift; and yet such is the gift, that the final issue depends on our future obedience to the heavenly call.

But other predestination than this, either to life or death eternal, the scripture knows not of.

Moreover, it is. Cruel respect of persons; an unjust regard of one, and an unjust disregard of another.

It is mere creature partiality, and not infinite justice.

It is not plain scripture doctrine, if true; but rather, inconsistent with the express written word, that speaks of God's universal offers of grace; his invitations, promises, threatenings, being all general.

We are bid to choose life, and reprehended for not doing it.

It is inconsistent with a state of probation in those that must be saved or must be lost.

It is of fatal consequence; all men being ready, on very slight grounds, to fancy themselves of the elect number. But the doctrine of predestination is entirely changed from what it formerly was.

Now it implies neither faith, peace, nor purity. It is something that will do without them all. Faith is no longer, according to the modern predestinarian scheme, a divine "evidence of things not seen," wrought in the soul by the immediate power of the Holy Ghost; not an evidence at all; but a mere notion.

Neither is faith made any longer a means of holiness; but something that will do without it.

Christ is no more a Saviour from sin; but a defence, a countenancer of it.

He is no more a fountain of spiritual life in the soul of believers, but leaves his elect inwardly dry, and outwardly unfruitful; and is made little more than a refuge from the image of the heavenly; even from righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.