Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Dave you do not understand calvinism or the parable
Calvinists believe in free will. Man will always do what he will do..and the elect will always will to come home..
So whether the son returned or not, he was still "saved?" That the point of the parable is that if you are good we'll have barbeque?
SD
You believe in something you call "free will," but it is not free and can not exercise its will.
Linguistic obfuscation.
SD
No Jessie and I have our share of differences..we are not joined at the hip. But I do like him :>)
I did not say you said man did not need a savior. I did not read that in your post...I am simply trying to get you to think through your thought that all men seek after God.
BUT that being said your assertion that man wants the God of Righteouness ,the God that will change their heart and put HIM on the throne instead of themselves is silly..just look around you.
Men have a knowledge in their hearts that there is a god..on that we agree...but remember Eden? What was the "promise " that made Eve bite? YOU shall be as Gods. Men want to sit on the throne of their own heart. They do not want to cede Lordship of their life unless it is under their conditions.
So when the carnal , unregenerate man goes looking for a god he makes sure it is one He is comfortable with...a God that lets them stay married in heaven and have as many wives as ya want..Yep we have a god like that step right over here...A god that will "absorb "you into the godhead ..yep he is behind door number two...A god that will not make any judgements and deal only with "ethical behavior...yep look behind door 4
Men do not want to give up their seat on the throne of their life..they want to fashion heaven .They want to be gods
Pony what did Paul mean when he said "there is none that understand? " What blocks their understanding? What did he mean that" none seeketh after God?"
That is the issue ..I was not hitting at your belief in needing a savior
I don't just think I believe in the sovereignty of God...I do believe in His sovereignty.
I know I am saved, and I remember vividly when it happened (even though it was a long time ago...I was just a little kid!). I know children can be saved, but I really don't think they understand all the words and exactly in what order the "process" happens! I honestly never thought about how it happened...I just know it did! (It's called "simple" faith...Luke 18:16-17)
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. CJ How can that happens if mans will is sovereign?
It can't. I don't believe man's will is sovereign; God is sovereign. But I guess the questions I asked and the statements I made regarding predestination would lead one to believe I think man's will overrides God's sovereignty.
And thanks for your very detailed response to pe in #943.
Maybe you should start a thread on the doctrine of predestination. (Good grief...I can't BELIEVE I just said that!)
Your friend, CJ :-)
This from the king. ;^)
I'll let it stand. :-)
You're exactly right. What I THINK doesn't matter a bit. What matters is what God thinks.
Who is described in Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53 is about Israel, as a reading of it in the context of the whole of Isaiah will reveal.
Give me a few of these prophecies so I can see how you are intrepreting them.
I gave four of them in my #605.
You are the first Jew I have talked to who doesn't believe that I am an idolator for worshipping Jesus as the Mighty God. I'm just exploring your beliefs about this.
Here is a link you might be interested in. Page down to the paragraph headed "Jewish views".
I've taken the time to review your posting history. For someone who professes to be a Christian, you do seem to spend a lot of time being deliberately offensive. Now, if you are interested in having a respectful discussion, fine. If not, then you may considered yourself ignored from here on out.
Poor angelo has been busy at work and hasn't had time to answer insults on the internet. ;o)
It is from scripture. Jesse will know why I posted this particular verse.
You mean you work:>)
LOL! Well, at least the people I employ do. Its good to be the boss. ;o)
Some days are busier than others...
What is it you disagree with?
I am sorry that you have not found my answer satisfactory. All I can do (and am willing to do) is go as far as the Scriptures go. God has not chosen to reveal the precise criteria He uses for "His pleasure." From what He has revealed of His nature, I accept that His motives are in character with His nature - as a just and holy God. I would point out that a God of whom a finite human could have exhaustive knowledge would no longer be infinite. I submit that God has been explicit about His character and motives to give us sufficient justification to conclude that He is neither capricious or whimsical. Note that I said sufficient not exhaustive. I would humbly ask anyone not satisfied by the answer of the Scriptures to examine their motives and ask if they were trying to judge God. That is the core of Paul's answer to your objection in Rom 9:19-22. I do so as one forgiven for previously holding such an attitude. I am thankful that He taught me from the Scriptures not to do so. I am thankful that He has been patient and longsuffering as He works on my attitude.
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