Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

[RnMomof7]

I have multiple love handles - does that count?

:>) ooooo

[RnMomof7]

Ok, then on what basis did God choose who would be Elect and who would not be Elect?

Eph 1:5   Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Rom 9:11   (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Certainly nothing I did that's for sure:>)

[ksen]

Thanks for the verses Mom. That is what I thought Calvinists would say. God chose according to "the good pleasure of His will."

Like I said that fits perfectly the definition of "whimsey."

Here are the definitions I posted earlier:

whim·si·cal adj.
1. Determined by, arising from, or marked by whim or caprice. See Synonyms at arbitrary

whim n.
1. A sudden or capricious idea; a fancy.
2. Arbitrary thought or impulse: governed by whim.

ar·bi·trar·y adj.
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

arbitrary \Ar"bi*tra*ry\, a. [L. arbitrarius, fr. arbiter: cf. F. arbitraire. See Arbiter.]
1. Depending on will or discretion; not governed by any fixed rules; as, an arbitrary decision; an arbitrary punishment.

So if God is choosing according to His good pleasure, how is that NOT whimsical?

[DouglasKC]

Like I said, I fall in between the Calvinist and Arminiast camps. I believe both are true. ‘But how can that be’ you ask. Well, I will tell you.

I liked that post. It pretty well sums up my position...although mine might be closer to the view that Calvinists and Arminians are both right in a way.

Calvinists are right in believing that there is an elect...the bible clearly teaches that. Arminians are correct in that God's salvation extends to all of mankind.

That seems to be a contradiction, but it's not. The elect are those who have been offered salvation in our present age. The rest will be offered salvation at the great white throne judgement, after the thousand year millenial kingdom.

[drstevej]

***The elect are those who have been offered salvation in our present age. The rest will be offered salvation at the great white throne judgement, after the thousand year millenial kingdom.***

Both Calvinists and Arminians condemn your views as heretical!

[DouglasKC]

Both Calvinists and Arminians condemn your views as heretical!

lol...heretical I can handle as long as it's biblical!

[drstevej]

***The elect are those who have been offered salvation in our present age***

So everyone who has heard the gospel in this era is elect???

[DouglasKC]

***The elect are those who have been offered salvation in our present age***
So everyone who has heard the gospel in this era is elect???

Nope. Lots of people hear the gospel. But not everyone is given understanding by God and so consequently many don't act on it...or as Christ said:

Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.

[drstevej]

So do you want to reword your statement:

***The elect are those who have been offered salvation in our present age***

[DouglasKC]

So do you want to reword your statement:
***The elect are those who have been offered salvation in our present age***

I'm more along the line of ksens thinking on this. If we're talking the elect from God's point of view then it's those who he foresaw accepting the offer. In that sense the elect are pre-determined and pre-known...but only God knows who all the elect are or will be. The elect might know that they are part of the elect...but they can never really be sure who the other elect are or will be.

[P-Marlowe]

Nobody will be offered salvation at the great white throne judement. If your name is not written in the book of life then you are tossed into the lake of fire. No offers. No counter offers. The offer is now. Now is the time of salvation. Not later.

About the only thing that might be offered to those who think that the great white throne judgment is a second chance at salvation is some asbestos temple underwear. They'll need it.

[DouglasKC]

Nobody will be offered salvation at the great white throne judement. If your name is not written in the book of life then you are tossed into the lake of fire. No offers. No counter offers. The offer is now. Now is the time of salvation. Not later.

I believe that now is the day for some, but not all. If the present age were the only age of salvation then Satan is more powerful than God. After all billions and billions of people have lived and died without ever hearing the name of Christ, must less his gospel. If it's God's desire that all men be saved (and it is) and if God does the saving (and he does) then why hasn't every single person on earth been turned to Christianity? Isn't God's will stronger than yours, mine and Satans?

About the only thing that might be offered to those who think that the great white throne judgment is a second chance at salvation is some asbestos temple underwear. They'll need it.

Oh I'm sure there will be some die hards who are just unteachable and will be unwilling to accept salvation. Their fate will be the lake of fire. But the thought that God will bother to bodily resurrect billions and billions of people just to torment them doesn't seem like a Godly thought. It makes more sense scripturally and logically that he's resurrecting and offering salvation to all those who never had a first chance due to deception, or because it wasn't their time, or because they had never heard of Christ or the good news.

[RnMomof7]

So if God is choosing according to His good pleasure, how is that NOT whimsical?

HOW DARE you mock God ?? Who the He** do you think you are?

I do not believe a saved man would mock the God of creation...Jhn 10:26   But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

[RnMomof7]

You need to read this and read it well!

Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898

Rom 9:1 Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit,
Rom 9:2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart --
Rom 9:3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ -- for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,
Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
Rom 9:6 And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who [are] of Israel are these Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor because they are seed of Abraham [are] all children, but -- `in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
Rom 9:8 that is, the children of the flesh -- these [are] not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed;
Rom 9:9 for the word of promise [is] this; `According to this time I will come, and there shall be to Sarah a son.'
Rom 9:10 And not only [so], but also Rebecca, having conceived by one -- Isaac our father --
Rom 9:11 (for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her --
Rom 9:12 `The greater shall serve the less;'
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'
Rom 9:14 What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be!
Rom 9:15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
Rom 9:16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Rom 9:17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?
Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us --
Rom 9:24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,
Rom 9:25 as also in Hosea He saith, `I will call what [is] not My people -- My people; and her not beloved -- Beloved,
Rom 9:26 and it shall be -- in the place where it was said to them, Ye [are] not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God.'
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;
Rom 9:28 for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.
Rom 9:29 and according as Isaiah saith before, `Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.'
Rom 9:30 What, then, shall we say? that nations who are not pursuing righteousness did attain to righteousness, and righteousness that [is] of faith,
Rom 9:31 and Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, at a law of righteousness did not arrive;
Rom 9:32 wherefore? because -- not by faith, but as by works of law; for they did stumble at the stone of stumbling,
Rom 9:33 according as it hath been written, `Lo, I place in Sion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence; and every one who is believing thereon shall not be ashamed.'

[RnMomof7]

But the thought that God will bother to bodily resurrect billions and billions of people just to torment them doesn't seem like a Godly thought.

Too bad you are not God Doug...cause what you THINK does not matter

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

[The Grammarian]

Like I said, I fall in between the Calvinist and Arminiast camps. I believe both are true. ‘But how can that be’ you ask.

Actually, so do Arminians and so do Calvinists, so it's no surprise to me. The big difference is in the extrapolation.

[The Grammarian]

TMI.

[The Grammarian]

Who the He** do you think you are?

Obviously, someone that knows how to use a dictionary and a thesaurus. ;>

[xzins]

Who the He** do you think you are? Obviously, someone that knows how to use a dictionary and a thesaurus. ;>

Wonder what the two *'s represent?

You think maybe she's using foul language? :>)

[RnMomof7]

I am not a Pastor ..

And unlike most Methodists I believe in Hell