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To: Catholicguy; narses; Tantumergo; Loyalist; ultima ratio
Sorry, you are wrong in your definition of V.II as "infallible." The Fathers of the Council defined it as "pastoral."

<> Sorry, you are worng. I have been beating my head against the Wailing Stone Walls of the Traditionalist Fortress trying to get this point across and even along The Watchtower the Guards of that ever decreasingly-populated stronghold are now admitting that ALL Ecumenical Councils ARE Infallible.

Ok. I'm getting a little frustrated watching people continue to talk past each other about this. I'm not sure there is even a real disagreement about the issue of infallibility, because every time it comes up the debaters seem to use the word in a distinctly different context from one another.

Ecumenical Councils are ALWAYS infallible in the sense that they are invested with infallible authority, much the same as the Pope is invested with infallible authority. I believe this is the point Catholicguy is making (jump in if I'm wrong).

The teachings produced by a Council may or may not be infallible, depending on whether the Council and the Pope declare them to be so. Those who question the infallibility of the Coucil seem to be questioning whether the specific teachings of that Council were ever declared to be infallible, not whether the Council had the authority to do so if it chose.

If anyone thinks the issue is different than I frame it above, please correct me.

191 posted on 09/27/2002 9:14:03 AM PDT by Snuffington
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To: Snuffington; maryz; ultima ratio; Catholicguy; patent
Conditionally accepting your line of thought, we can go back to the original topic: the Old Rite Mass.

The Council did NOT teach infallibly about the Rite of the Mass. The Rite is a CANON LAW matter, reserved to the Holy See.

It is regulatory, not doctrinal, not dogmatic.

Catholic Guy doesn't want to understand this. Perhaps he had a bad experience someplace, or has a headache, or has a sizeable investment in the New Rite.

In any case, he is simply wrong.
198 posted on 09/27/2002 9:24:49 AM PDT by ninenot
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