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To: Wrigley
We are talking about the where praying to saints is Biblical

You have asked a fair question. I don't expect you to agree with the following, but only to respect the fact that Catholics may have a point.

Aside from the fact that the Church Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it.

In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in theheavenly court and exhort them:

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:

"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one -- qaddiysh -- to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf. Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium all agree.

82 posted on 09/03/2002 7:21:54 PM PDT by Sock
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To: Sock
Aside from the fact that the Church Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it/

Point for my understanding. If the Bible were to show the magiterium and tradition were wrong, would the practice be ended?

84 posted on 09/03/2002 7:25:36 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Sock
Dear Sock,

Excellent post.

sitetest
85 posted on 09/03/2002 7:26:41 PM PDT by sitetest
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To: Sock
Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where you get that idea from that verse. It does not say that the angels presented the prayers to God. You're reading your view into it.

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:

It says nothing more than that.

In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf.

No where does it say that there is any intercession.

86 posted on 09/03/2002 7:29:07 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Sock
I'm not running out on you here. I have an early day tomorrow. I'll be back.
87 posted on 09/03/2002 7:30:21 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Sock
Thank you.
89 posted on 09/03/2002 7:34:02 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Sock; JMJ333; Wrigley; the_doc; Polycarp; Jean Chauvin; RnMomof7; CCWoody
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4) "And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8). ~~~ Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner.... One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

How is this "digging a hole deeper"? I would argue that your choice of language (and your choice of doctrine) is fatally at fault here.

You are using the term "intercessory" as though it implies some sort of mediatorial entreaty by the Dead... even a mediatorial entreaty by the Justified Saints in Heaven (God forbid!! I must allege that Our Saints are grieved by this Roman Abomination, Sock).

Such an interpretation is expressly forbidden to the Church:

Here's an "Amillenial Protestant" HINT for ya, Sock -- Revelations is by far the most "Old Testamental" Book in the New Covenant Scripture, rivalled only by the Johannine Gospel (also written by John) for its hundreds of direct and specific Old Testament References. Revelation is the most "Biblical" Book in the New Testament, bearing in mind that the Palestinian Canon of the Old Covenant Scriptures were the "Bible" which the Author was referencing.

If you do not reference the Old Testament every single time you read a single passage of Revelation, you will always, always, always get your understanding DEAD WRONG. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

As concerns the specific passages under our consideration (Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3-4), realize that both these passages are a direct, specific, and umambiguous reference to Exodus chapter 30, verses 6 through 10:

Now, what should this tell you, Sock?

Aaron had One Role and he had one role only -- he carried the Confession of Sins and the Prayer for Salvation unto the Lord through the Vail of the Ark (and as per Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, we have now a better High Priest than Aaron, it must needs be said) unto the Lord of Hosts for the forgiveness of Sins.

Aaron neither knew nor received nor mediated the Prayers of the Saints; he merely carried them unto the Lord (as is equally seen in the collaborative references of Revelations 5 and 8). The Bringing of the Incense was an offeratory sacrifice given unto Him WHO ALONE knows the secret heart of Man:

How, then, would you dare to make our Beloved Saints a party to such an Anti-Biblical Usurpation, as to assign to them a role of mediatorial entreaty which Aaron himself would in no wise have claimed?

AN EVERLASTING CURSE ON SUCH A BLASPHEMY!!

Such a blasphemy is to Attribute to mere Men that which belongs to God Alone: to omnisciently see and perfectly reward that which is Prayed in secret. God Forbid that we should exalt the Creature such as this.

No, the Economy of Heaven mirrors the Economy of Israel in this: even as Aaron neither knew nor received nor mediated the Prayers of the Saints, so neither do the Saints on High. Like Aaron they have carried the Confession of Sins and the Prayer for Salvation unto the Lord... they want no part of Unseemly Divination (in which, not being Omniscient, they have not the Power to partake anyway).

You say that we Protestants do not venerate the Saints??
I say that we Protestants venerate the Saints more highly than any Roman.

We Protestants do indeed venerate the martyred Saints... but we do not seek to make them a party to any abominable divination, or strange incense, of which Our Blessed Saints want no thrice-damned part.

131 posted on 09/04/2002 12:29:54 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Sock; JMJ333; Codie; CCWoody; the_doc
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

This has noting to do with intercession of the dead

Revelation, where we read:
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Angels are NOT dead people they are a seperate creation of God..they are ministering spirits...(really read Hebrews) Their purpose is to worship God and since creation of man minister to us

Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And who are the saints whos prayers they carry?

Those that will be the heirs of Salvation the living Church

Act 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

By redefining the word Saints scripture is preverted

186 posted on 09/04/2002 8:54:25 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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