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True and False apparitions in the Modern Church
TCR News ^ | JUNE 2002 | Donal Anthony Foley

Posted on 06/29/2002 4:50:52 AM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 06/29/2002 4:50:52 AM PDT by NYer
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To: *Catholic_list; Salvation; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; american colleen
Several years ago, a neighbor returned from Medjugorje and totally revamped her life. She tossed out her live-in boyfriend, sequestered herself in prayer, decorated her home with icons, statues & religious articles, traveled into NYC to toss medals of the BVM around the United Nations building, and held weekly prayer meetings in her home. Two years ago, she felt that Mary wanted her to move, so she put her house up for sale. When asked where she was moving, she had no clue but she trusted that Mary would direct her.

She became involved with a List_Serv group that shares messages from seers in the US and Canada, all of whom are adults. It unnerved me in that none of these apparitions or messages were sanctioned by the church. These "followers" impressed me as a cult. Even more alarming was their discrimination of priests who were either "pro" Medjugorje or against.

For your discussion.

2 posted on 06/29/2002 5:00:11 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Thanks for posting this article.

One problem I have with it is that it states that there are visions in Medjugorje every day... I don't think that is true? But the messages are all the same, and when read, seem like the BVM is telling us that all religions are good and the same.

Although there are good fruits from Medjugorje (rosary, conversions), I do see a divide among people because of it as the author states. Among the believers, Medjugorje can almost be a litmus test with which they judge the orthodoxy of others - even how they judge priests. I just ran into this (again) a few weeks ago. The licit apparitions (Fatima and Lourdes) compliment our Faith and are not the pinnicle of it as Medjugorje (and other not licit apparitions) seem to be among their adherents. I also question why quite a few believers in these (false, IMO) apparitions tend to move and sequester themselves instead of remaining in the population at large where they could "witness" as the Bible tells us to do. Can't be a light to others if no one out of your circle is with you. I would imagine that another "fruit" of Medjugorje may be the division of families. In my experience with Medjugorje (which dates to the mid 80s), I noticed that a lot of the believers also believe in almost any ongoing visionary.

I think a lot of this stuff is where the Protestants rightly see some Catholics "worshipping" Mary and losing sight of Jesus. I do not believe that Lourdes and Fatima has the same fruit - they led to a greater understanding of Jesus and not the worship of Mary.

3 posted on 06/29/2002 6:54:11 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
It seems to me that false apparitions always lead to establishing de facto ghettos of 'believers' or at the least the false apparitions lead to an 'us and them' mentality completely at odds with the Commission of Jesus to go into all the world, preach, baptize and teach. Real apparitions produce all sorts of enduring fruit .

Our Lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland, pray for us.

4 posted on 06/29/2002 9:47:29 AM PDT by Siobhan
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To: Siobhan
Yes, and that is probably the way I personally discern my belief or not, in the apparition or revelation of the visionary. Plus, I generally have always gotten "an uneasy" feeling about some of these "visions" when I study up on them. Hard to describe, but very real to me.

I've been to Knock! It was wonderful, but I was sort of underwhelmed by the modern architecture - but most of the Catholic Churches in Ireland are the same (thanx, Henry VIII).

5 posted on 06/29/2002 9:55:45 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Siobhan
Why are apparitions necessary at all?
6 posted on 06/29/2002 10:00:22 AM PDT by Codie
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To: american colleen
You have written a very wise reflection here. Especially the part about non-Catholics latching onto the idea that Catholics "worship" Mary. We "honor" Mary as the Mother of Jesus. Period.

I was very impressed with the article and the comparison of average time of the apparitions, age of the children, amount spoken by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

This is all very new to me; I have never really delved into it much in the past. And these comparisons give me a little bit to go on -- in looking at what the Church looks at and how it rules on these apparitions.

7 posted on 06/29/2002 11:12:16 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
This is a pretty good article on false apparitions: "False Apparitions and the Great Apostasy"

And here: "Unity Publishing" - I like this site because it has a bit on all of the "famous" apparitions.

8 posted on 06/29/2002 11:29:53 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: NYer
That is a good example of bad fruit. The person amended her life, not for love of God, but based on a lie. There are thousands of people caught up in these false apparitions. It is such a waste of time, spiritually speaking, to devote so much to lies, even if they seem to promote good.

E. Michael Jones says that the devil will cause people to do that which seems good if he can keep them from a greater good.

What happens to peoples' faith when they finally wake up and learn they have been deceived and to realize they have spent so much of their time and energy promoting falsehoods? Some of them get so desperate to bolster their flagging faith that they rebound from one false apparition or seer to another. They take donations for lies. That is fraudulent.

There is a guy on the catholic newsgroup that is so orthodox you can find nothing to fault him on except he is obsessed with some seer who says some really whacked out things. Few catholics challenge him on it and when they do, he has an answer for everything. He has made a nuisance of himself trying to get people to write to the Vatican to get the ugly business approved. There are other sinister overtones as well to the point that they are probably on a watch list of some sort.

All this from a faithful catholic who attends mass every day and does everything else right.

I should have saved some of his nonsense as a good example of how an otherwise orthodox person can get led astray.

9 posted on 06/29/2002 11:40:42 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: NYer
Here's an example of what I wrote about in my previous post; I found it in the usenet archives, posted Dec. 30, 1999:

"Saint Peter; The pronouncement will be simple, George, because you and John Mark are simple. And God is allowing me to make it, George, and my love for you and John Mark will be forever. The pronouncement will be as follows, George: In eternity, before He created His Creation, God created two creatures with immortal souls, whom He created unioned to each other, inseparable, and whom He created simultaneously. He spoke George to George and George understood and He spoke John Mark to John Mark and John Mark understood. And He said to them both, I am God. They knew and loved each other instantly and they both loved God together. And they wanted God to love them both. And they wanted God to help them to love Him more. They are two unique creatures whom God created with immortal souls, they are neither angels nor humans, they are God's two Children of Love. They have been written about throughout God's entire Holy Scripture. None of God's Creation precedes them. They are God's witnesses and they are God's creatures with immortal souls. For them is reserved, in their simplicity, the Very Especial Infinite Love of Almighty God. George is God's Child of Peace and John Mark is God's Child of Justice and they both are God's Children of Love. And there are only two of them. And they are George and John Mark. As spiritual beings with immortal souls whom God created in eternity before He created His Creation, He entered them into their human bodies, their human natures, their human presences, at the moments of conception in their mothers' wombs. They are with each other and with God for all eternity. It will be pronounced, George, verbatim. Through God's Gift of Infallibility in His Beloved Pope, John Paul II, you and John Mark will be Catholic Dogma, George. God's use of you and John Mark is so vast, George, that you both are simple. You know it is me, Saint Peter, giving you this locution and to you you experience receiving it as normal to you. It will be normal for you, George, to hold my hand and go for a walk with me, because you are a child. And John Mark is a child also. You and John Mark do many tasks for God, and you and John Mark do many errands for Him. And God is isolating His Beloved Pope, John Paul II, now, in His Gift of Infallibility. The above, Mark, is excerpted from George's Letter to Father Alexis re: God's New Priesthood of Love. It is subject to neither argumentation nor debate, it is subject to discernment. I await, as George does, the final decision of Pope John Paul II. If you decide for yourself, you don't believe in "George of George [and John Mark]", you have done exactly what I already warned you against: you have set up your own little Papacy, with Pope Mark. But, you are on the verge of being a sedevacantist anyway, so, maybe you are the real Pope. I follow John Paul II and I am admonishing you to do the same. That is it, there is no further discussion between you and me about this, ASK THE POPE."

Here's his website:

Roman Catholicism Page

Home page is very orthodox looking. You have to dig deeper. I don't know that he has made any converts to his cause; haven't checked on him lately.

Am I being sick if I see homosexual overtones/undertones in the above drivel? If so I apologize for having my mind warped by scandals.

10 posted on 06/29/2002 11:58:53 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: Aliska; Siobhan; american colleen; Salvation
Thank you all for your insightful observations on the apparitions. You have each well paraphrased what I have felt all along about Medjugorje, Garabandal, Bayside and the other sites. american colleen is absolutely correct when she notes that these followers used Medjugorje as a litmus test to judge others.

As if we didn't have enough to contend with in the church.

11 posted on 06/29/2002 1:30:42 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
A couple years ago I wrote to the diocese of Mostar and they sent me a packet of documents. I put them on the net:

Click here

Long reading but thorough.

As if we didn't have enough to contend with in the church. This is what bothers me. The sex scandals deflect from the spiritual scandals. I've been very upset for a long time that the bishops have trampled over the authority of the Bishop of Mostar and permitted the apparition industry to thrive throughout the entire world. They should be guiding us better and be clamping down on those in the flock who disseminate and promote anything that is not approved by the church.

It is the responsibility of the church all the way to the top to correctly discern and warn the faithful. Why should we have to do it?

I'm not trying to plug my website; some freepers know about it; for the sake of those who don't know the whole story about Medjugorje, I repost it occasionally.

Thanks for posting the article btw. It is excellent and long overdue. How many will read and take heed?

12 posted on 06/29/2002 1:47:42 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: NYer
I found a place on the net where I can order Bouflet's book, but with shipping and handling it is $37 USD (37,39 Euro). That's pretty steep; I'll have to wait. I'll check out Amazon.

I wish it was available in English.

13 posted on 06/29/2002 2:02:38 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Codie
Why are apparitions necessary at all?

Catholics are not obligated to believe in any of the apparitions.

14 posted on 06/29/2002 2:10:34 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Catholics are not obligated to believe in any of the apparitions.

I know that.However, the Church does believe in them,and I simply want to know why they feel they are worthy of belief.

It seems the apparitions have brought many back to the Church but also widen the gulf between Protestants and Catholics.

I'm having an extremly hard time seeing God in all this. Any guidance would be helpful.

15 posted on 06/29/2002 2:42:58 PM PDT by Codie
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
It can be argued that God is actually obliged, in a certain sense, not to give more than a certain number of prophecies, writings, apparitions, etc., if he is not to confuse people.

Indeed it can. And the "certain number" in question is zero. There are no privileged observers.

What next? A discussion on genuine versus false newage psychic hotlines?

18 posted on 06/30/2002 8:50:37 PM PDT by John Locke
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To: NYer
Thank you very much,NYer for this most timely post.I do not feel comfortable with Medjurge,even though,in the beginning I believed in it,as did The Wanderer.In fact it was in the Wanderer that I first heard about it.There's been some very disturbing things reported about Medjurge,which I don't want to repeat here.Needless to say,I have always believed in Fatima and Lourdes.I feel comfortable with them,knowing that the Universal Church has approved them.
19 posted on 06/30/2002 9:48:43 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: John Locke
Indeed it can. And the "certain number" in question is zero. There are no privileged observers.

Is that you God!?!?!

20 posted on 06/30/2002 9:54:05 PM PDT by american colleen
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