Posted on 05/05/2002 11:41:11 PM PDT by lockeliberty
Well, I'm no expert in natural theology or Kantian philosophy but I think you got it backwards. I believe drstevej knows this stuff so maybe he can explain it. My understanding is that Kant believed God could not relate to man because he was too emminent. Van Til obviously did not state that. Natural theology, as an offshoot of Kantian philosophy, states that man reaches God through our reason, no divine revelation needed, in fact, divine revelation is impossible. General revelation, which is what I believe you were speaking about, does lead us to God but we still need divine intervention in our lives in order to reach God.
I did have lunch with Van Til a time or two. As WTS professor emeritus he spent hours on campus talking with students. Usually there was a crowd around him.
OK, if I do that, if I REALLY do that, then will I be saved?
If I do that, if I REALLY do that, will God allow me to be one of the elect?
If I do that, if I REALLY do that, am I guaranteed to be "chosen"?
If I do that, if I REALLY do that, am I guaranteed that God will hear MY PRAYER and answer it?
If so, then that is Good News indeed!!!
However, I get the feeling that there are those on these threads that think I need to do a lot more than that to be saved. That somehow your formula is not sufficient. That somehow I have no control over it whatsoever. Am I wrong?
YES
However, I get the feeling that there are those on these threads that think I need to do a lot more than that to be saved. That somehow your formula is not sufficient. That somehow I have no control over it whatsoever. Am I wrong?
First, I would not call it a formula. It is a matter of the heart. Regarding whether others may think it is insufficient, you would have to ask them.
BTW, we must remember the Great Commission was not merely a commission to evangelize. It was also a commission to disciple those who believe. In fact, in some expressions of the Great Commission the Lord only spoke of discipleship.
First, regarding Kantian Epistemology. That epistemology stated that man cannot know anything as it is because his senses distorted the data he was receiving. As for Van til he is saying that man cannot understand anything about God because man is unregenerate, hence the appeal to Christian presuppositions.
Regarding natural theology it was never believed to substitute for Divine Revelation via Scripture. Aquinas (natural theology) was defending knowledge that proved the existence of God, nothing more. In other words, the theology of nature (Ps.19), which proves that God exists. Aquinas never believed that natural theology could substitute for God's revelation via the Scripture (and being a Catholic, the Church)
Now, Til may be substituting his own definitions in place of the common usage of those terms.
Finally, Aquinas, not Kant is the defender of natural theology. Kant unhinged philosophy from any connection with objective reality and made it totally subjective.
Me too Marlowe..Repent and Believe..sums it up well
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(Romans 5;15)
Salvation
- Is of God
#PS 3:8; Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.
- Is of the purpose of God
#2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
- Is of the appointment of God
#1TH 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
- Is by Christ
EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
- Is by Christ alone
AC 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
- Revealed in the gospel
#EPH 1:11-13; 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2TI 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
- CHRIST, . The Captain of our salvation
#HEB 2:9-10 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Christ the Author of our Salvation
#HEB 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Christ Appointed for our salvation
#ISA 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
. . . Mighty to effect
HEB 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
. Came to effect
#MT 18:11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
. Died to effect #JOH 3:14,15; 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
GA 1:4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
- Is not by works #RO 11:6And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
EPH 2:9;Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2TI 1:9;Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
- Is of grace #EPH 2:5,8;
2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
2TI 1:9;Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
TIT 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
- Is through faith in Christ
#MR 16:16;He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
AC 16:31;And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
RO 10:9;That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. EPH 2:8;For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
1PE 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- Reconciliation to God,
#RO 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Well, Praise the Lord!!!
You know I see some of you Calvinists claim that in order to be a true Gospel message it must be offensive. So some of you guys deliver it with the deliberate intention of offending the listener. Yet God tells US not to be offensive to men. It is the gospel message that is offensive and it is not necessary to present it in an offensive way. Indeed, if you present it in a attractive way, it will still be offensive to those who ultimately are going to perish, so why try to scare people away?
Jesus told us he would make us all "Fishers of Men." We will not catch any fish if we deliberately bait our hooks with fish repellant. We must use bait. The best bait we can use is showing others the fruits of the spirit that God puts in our lives.
When people see the light in our lives, they will be attracted and hopefully God can use our lives as bait to reel in his "chosen." ones.
I violently disagree with those on these threads that think that the more offensive they are the more they are doing the work of God.
We need also to make sure that we do not sacrifice clarity in an effort to make the gospel attractive. The issues of sin and guilt are central and shouldn't be camoflaged. We can perhaps be too tactful.
BTW my favorite definition of tact is "Tact is the art of telling someone to go to Hell, and having them look forward to the trip!"
AMEN!
Sorry Steve, but I was baptized in the ocean by an Arminian Charismatic Pentacostal Dispensationist Hippie Long-Haired Bearded ex-druggie street preacher in 1971. So you missed your chance. :-)
However, if you can match his theological credentials, then for old times sake I might take you up on a re-baptism. I'll meet you at the beach.
Hey Steve, you picked the wrong condiments! I put Vinegar on my fries and Fish and Salads and I put Tobasco on EVERYTHING! Now dill pickles I despise. So lets PREACH THE GOSPEL BUT HOLD THE PICKLES! :-)
Where were you born that you put vinegar on fries?? Me too...as for tabasco..ummmmm even on popcorn...
Marlow you had a weird baptism........that guy almost sounds like.........ummmmmm John the Baptist
I once heard someone say .."they will admit they are sinners...we can let God worry about it AFTER they are saved"
This certainly makes the "leader" feel "good" and may make the prayer think their needs will now get met..but I doubt it "saved " anyone..
Hocus pocus..salvation
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