Posted on 12/10/2025 5:08:20 PM PST by daniel1212
This is as much Divine truth - versus God-inspired testimony to the conclusions of the natural man - as is,
"There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God." (Ecclesiastes 2:24)
I did not know that you were an annihilationist as well a soul-sleeper, which is what citing this as Divine truth renders you unless you also believe in a future judgment for the dead and everlasting punishment.
Annihilationism makes a mockery the warnings of Christ against "having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."(Mark 9:43,44)
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 8:12)And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:42)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:47-48)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)
This is a true story as well as representing two classes of souls. Jesus never used real names in any parable, nor science fiction, as instead in parables, He used known physical realities (a pearl, a sheep, etc.) which represented a spiritual reality.
But if there is no conscious torment after death, then Christ would be referring to something that would be science fiction, not a known physical reality, that of interminable torment after physical death, in an environment that is contrary to known laws of physics (otherwise a drop - which is all the damned soul dared ask for - of water would evaporate).
Maybe some others on my ping list agree with you.
Don't let the left's divisive tactics from splitting hairs of our allies.
God says he has the power to destroy the spirit and the soul. I’m sure I’ll understand in the end why he would prefer people suffer for eternity, but for now, it seems cruel.
“ we should direct our ire more at the hedonist God-denying, child sacrificing, child grooming Dims than against a fellow Christian like Cameron for not having the details of eternal punishment with Jesus exactly right.”
Good point. Plus no mortal knows those sorts of details anyway. No one.
The issue is justice not punishments. God must be just. Maybe you think our earthly judges should be worried about punishment instead of justice. Ooops that is what liberal judges do.....................
True. Who would send one of their children to eternal torment? I didn’t ask to be born but here I am. I’m not supposed to be of this world but live a certain way. Why am I here?
I meant “eternal punishment without Jesus”
I absolutely understand why there is an everlasting hell. It's not something I relish thinking about. It's the worst tragedy imaginable: that more people than not will go to a place of eternal torment because they refused to humble themselves and admit that they have fallen short. But hell is for people who don't do that. In a way it's being fair to them. They are being given no more and no less than what they wanted: an eternity without God. To such people heaven would be an unendurable torment worse than hell.
Why am I here?
https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/westminster-shorter-catechism
Some very wise men have gone to scripture for that question.
I will let you do your own look at the source. There is a two part answer. I have been intrigued by the second Part lately.........................
Thank you
I'm not sold on the annihilation belief (back to the original topic of the thread). I believe that people who got to Hell stay there forever. But I can understand how someone can read John 3:16's "shall not perish" as believing that eventually Hell will end and there's non-existence for the non-believers. (They believe the torment might not be eternal, but the punishment is eternal because the death that they believe happens after Hell is eternal.) The same kind of thing from 2 Thessalonians 1:9's "everlasting destruction". I'm willing to cut my fellow Christians a little wiggle room for disagreeing with me on the micro details of the eternal punishment.
This is the traditional Roman Catholic view.
The Bible is very clear that upon death, the souls of unbelievers go to hell. Not purgatory, which is a place that they can endure enough cleansing to pay for the sins they committed on earth and somehow get out. Even if someone pays an indulgence to get you out.
This NOT what Catholics believe. If a person confesses to a sin like stealing and doesn't follow the priests instruction for absolution which may be to return the money, they may spend time in purgatory for not fulfilling the terms of the absolution.
Disappointing this is.
God doesn't prefer anyone to perish, that's why Jesus came and died for our sins. It's easy to escape Hell, just believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess him as Lord and Savior. It should make us sad that people reject this and should spur us into witnessing to other people.
If we could pay for our sins, Christ died for nothing.
ONLY the blood of Jesus can cleanse our sin. Nothing else can or will do it.
If the blood of Jesus isn't enough, then NOTHING is.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Second, some sinners go to purgatory in hopes they can be prayed out by someone still living. This is the traditional Roman Catholic view. The Bible is very clear that upon death, the souls of unbelievers go to hell. Not purgatory, which is a place that they can endure enough cleansing to pay for the sins they committed on earth and somehow get out. Even if someone pays an indulgence to get you out.This NOT what Catholics believe. If a person confesses to a sin like stealing and doesn't follow the priests instruction for absolution which may be to return the money, they may spend time in purgatory for not fulfilling the terms of the absolution.
You are quoting from the article, and which lacks details, as does your own version. RC (not the same as the even less defined EO) purgatory is not just about not making restitution but not suffering enough for sins. See What Is the Catholic Understanding of the Biblical Plan of Salvation?
if the debt of punishment is not paid in full after the stain of sin has been washed away by contrition, nor again are venial sins always removed when mortal sins are remitted, and if justice demands that sin be set in order by due punishment, it follows that one who after contrition for his fault and after being absolved, dies before making due satisfaction, is punished after this life... Hence Gregory of Nyssa, after the words quoted above, adds: "This we preach, holding to the teaching of truth, and this is our belief; this the universal Church holds, by praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins." ..."If one who loves and believes in Christ," has failed to wash away his sins in this life, "he is set free after death by the fire of Purgatory." Therefore there remains some kind of cleansing after this life. - The Summa Theologiæ of St. Thomas Aquinas, Supplement (Appendix II), Article 1: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm"Catholic Answers" states, based upon perversely taking 1 Cor. 3:10-15 out of context, states,
Paul also notes that although others will be saved, and for whom no reward is mentioned, they will still have to undergo purification, presumably because of their remaining attachment to or affection for their bad habits and vices.
For certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized , such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence. .. (CCC 1264)
Which means that unless they died having attained to the level of practical perfection needed, then they are in in need of postmortem purification commencing at death, even "through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments. (Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI) For
And thus, what flows from the original error of believing man must actually become good enough to be with God (rather than faith being counted/imputed for righteous, - Rm. 4:5 - and with obedience and holiness being evidential fruit of regenerating faith) is that of the doctrine of RC Purgatory, by which, besides atoning for sins not sufficiently expiated on earth, serves to make the baptized good enough to be with God.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness " etc. (City of God XXI.24.)
And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness ".
One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).
"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." Purification must be complete..." "This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory." — John Paul II, Audiences, 1999; http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999.html
Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,
"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224
However, in principle, this premise of perfection of character for final salvation should eliminate the newly baptized (which, as they are clean and good enough under imagined effect of the act itself of baptism removing sins and regenerating the subject) are said to able to go to bypass Purgatory - if they died before they sinned - since while innocent, yet they have not yet attained to "spiritual excellence," to elmination of "every trace of attachment to evil," to "perfection of the soul," to the level of practical holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
And this premise would also exclude the contrite criminal of Luke 23:43 from being with Christ at death, yet who was told by the Lord that he would be with Christ in Paradise that day. And likewise imperfect Paul, (Philippians 3:13) who attested that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:7; cf. Philippians 1:23) And indeed it would exclude all believers who were told that they would be forever with the Lord if He returned in their lifetime (1 This. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul.
In contrast, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)
And rather than Purgatory conforming souls to Christ to inherit the kingdom of God, the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being made like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ And which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure!) due to the manner of material one built the church with. But which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)
Note also that the tradition-based Eastern Orthodox reject RC Purgatory, among some other substantial RC distinctives
In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6) The Lord Jesus, in being "made perfect" (Hebrews 2:10) as regards experientially "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15) was subjected to this in the life.
Meanwhile the salvation by holiness via baptism and purgatory are all under the RC rubric of salvation by grace thru merit:
It's the principle of denying a basic teaching of Scripture, thereby having the Lord effectively say, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-44) -
BUT despite this warning, your punishment for decades of fulfilling your lusts, not matter how much harm it cause, will be but temporary.
Likewise,
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:40-41,45-46)
BUTdespite this warning, your since "everlasting" can sometimes mean less than that, rather than these words misleading you, be assured your punishment will be but temporary, just as that of the devil whom you chose to believe in choosing darkness over light. Not to worry much.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:9-10)So let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die as sinner, and know nothing in the spiritual real. Like the rich man in Hell. O, you were taught this was literal because of the real names being used? No, that was uniquely using science fiction, since unlike in all other parables, in which known physical things are used to illustrate actual spiritual realities, then since there is no on-going conscious torment after death, then this was simply science fiction, meant to illustrate something about Jews vs Gentiles or something.
NO, the Lord was not misleading souls, as anything but a literal understanding of the spiritual reality of ongoing conscious punishment that awaits the impenitent after death largely removes the deterrent effect that such words convey.
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