Posted on 09/24/2022 9:27:48 PM PDT by OneVike
The debate about who created evil is an important one, since atheists and skeptics use the existence of evil in their arguments against theism. To begin with, Christians are told we must believe what the Bible tells us. Even a popular children's song has in its lyrics these words,
“Jesus Loves Me this I know, for the Bible tells me so"
If it is incumbent upon Christians to believe what the Bible tells us, then we can start with the first verse of the Bible that says,
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
(Genesis 1:1)
So, if God created everything, and if evil is in the world, doesn't it follow that God created evil? After all, in his Gospel, the most beloved Disciple tells us,
“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”Thus God made everything through Christ. However, are there any Scriptures that specifically say God is the author of evil? Well, the closest we can get is,
(John 1:3)
“I make peace and create calamity”Then we read what the Prophet Amos wrote,
(Isaiah 45:7)
“If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?"Ok, so can we then point to any passages that might elude to God condoning evil? Probably the best examples would be the time Joseph confronted his brothers who sold him into slavery,
(Amos 3:6)
“you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good"Then in Exodus we read that God sent Moses to Pharaoh with this message, Now, to make an honest Scriptural argument for my stance on this issue, I had to first share with you the verses used by those who argue that Scriptures prove God is the author of evil. Those who come from the persuasion that God has foreordained the entire course of events as Calvinists do, then reason and logic would suggest that God must be the author of evil. However, Calvinists who teach that God is the author of evil would be wise to pay attention to the following quote from (John Calvin) himself:
(Genesis 50:20)
“It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply a want of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.” Calvin goes on to state unequivocally that, “God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things--including all the fruits of all the evil of all time--work together for a greater good.”
[Institutes, 3:23:8]
Mind you, the biggest defenders among Christians who believe God created evil are those who adhere to the teachings of John Calvin. Well it seems to me that there is a bit of a schism in the ranks of the Calvinist movement.
Two verses used to defend the belief that God created evil are (Isaiah 45:7) and (Amos 3:6). In both instances the word evil, not calamity, is used in 12 of the 21 Bible translations I have. It is important to note that all but one of the translations using the word evil were published before 1948. This is important, because in 1948 the (Dead Sea Scrolls) were discovered by a shepherd boy in the caves of Qumran in 1948. After exhaustive and painstaking investigation,it was learned that the Scrolls revealed that the proper translation for these verses would actually be disaster or calamity, not evil.
Now some may argue that a calamity is an evil, because it causes pain and misery and so they will still argue that God is the creator of evil. However, when speaking of evil in regards to the nature of sin, it should be observed that there are three kinds of
(Excerpt) Read more at trfmf.com …
“and then the fishys and the birds and the cows and the apes and finally Man and then ME!””
-————————Adam was alone-————
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21
When you even pot such a statement are you surprised that Christians will respond, or are you presuming they will? Such a characterization of God indicates you are sorely uneducated on Who God Is and what His Sovereign authority means. It also indicates you presume more than you qactually know.
If you are treading water out in the middle of the ocean and I come by with a boat and offer to rescue you from your imminent drowning or being eaten by sharks, would you presume me vengeful or capricious and reject my offer to pull you from the water to the safety of my boat?
My initial post on this thread was post number 2.
That’s really all I wanted to say, but one person with whom I’ve had interesting engagements in the past responded.
(and you are...?)
I am one who is concerned for your eternal destiny. If we were discussing this notion I would ask you if you believe you are made with a physical body, a soul/behavior mechanism, and a spirit, with the spirit and soul being in a greater dimensional variables UNiverse, not limited by the 4D of your physical body. I would seek to start there.
I think God has taken care of my eternal destiny.
But thanks very much for your concern :-)
"I’ve never bought-into the notion of a vengeful or capricious God, for instance; nor into the concepts of ‘vicarious atonement’ or some ‘salvation’ that takes place by faith alone. ... "I think God has taken care of my eternal destiny."
Well, I’ve figured it all out satisfactorily for myself.
I sincerely hope that you have, too.
Evil is a condition brought forth by sin and rebellion against God.
In that sense, it is not a created thing, like the Earth and stars. It is merely a side product of rebellion against the Creator. It is an example of separation from God, a view into what we call Hell.
I can agree with what I perceive that you are saying.
God laid out laws, and if we break them, we suffer. God set us up pretty well; the rest is all on us.
Evil is not a place or object but a qualitative description that describes actions (free will) with intent of the sentient being-human or otherwise. Real quick: An accidental death is not evil, someone plotting someone’s death is usually evil, if it is plotting the death of a serial murderer or someone like Hitler, Stalin not evil..
To me the atheist argument on this is a nothing burger-semantics with our limited language skills like kids saying if God is so strong can he make a rock so heavy even he can’t lift it
Yes, if we break them evil is a result. There is an enemy that wants or tempts us to sin. Evil is a consequence of something, not a created thing is what I’m saying. I am actually challenging the premise of this piece that evil is something that was specifically created. I see it differently than that. I think it is the result of something.
I disagree with what I sense as an implied personification of ‘evil’ as enemy, in your post. The only enemy we have is ourselves - or rather, our lower selves.
Otherwise, I agree.
The serpent that tempts is the enemy, even Jesus confronted him.
But that doesn’t personify evil as something that is a result of just the enemy. There is evil from the actions of man, in the case of Cain, there is no insinuation of influence outside himself. The sin of men can result in evil outside any influence of the enemy. But as for me, I do believe it is clear that there is an enemy existing.
Well, if you mean a devil or ‘satan’, I just don’t believe in it.
There’s no room in my concept of an all-encompassing God - in Whom I ‘live and move and have my being’ - for a lesser, rival little ‘god’. (And that is exactly what satan boils down to, for those who believe in it.)
We will just have to disagree on that. To me, It is too plain in the Torah and in the New Testament that rebellion exists not only in man but in the spiritual realm as well.
There may be lost, aimless entities in other realms and dimensions; but I don’t believe they have any power over us unless we allow it. And we allow it by believing in and fearing them.
I think most scriptural references to these are symbolical, but we can ‘create’ and give power to just about anything we fear - or love! - enough.
Anyway, it’s been very nice ‘talking’ with you.
And same to you…thanks.
Including evil and darkness.
And everything else.
Where you find life, you find death.
I wonder how many times Evolution came up with LIFE, only to have it die soon.
The primordial goo MUST have decided, somewhere way back in time, to evolve some way to REPRODUCE after appearing on the scene once again.
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