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To: dangus
Upon completing the remembrance ceremony, Jesus referred to the contents of the cup as wine and said He would not drink again of the fruit of the vine until in The Kingdom.

Read the scene in all three Gospels which record it. Jesus identified the ceremony as a remembrance fo Him until He comes. The salvation of the dead spirit is a spiritual reality, not a hocus pocus through the alimentary tract. Read John 6 again, noting how many times JESUS refers to believing as the measn to receive the SPIRITUAL nourishment.

In the scene of the remembrance ceremony the night He was betrayed, JESUS shows us the metaphor is just that by identifying the fruit of the vine after the ceremony is completed. Jesus uses the physical bread and wine to illustrate our need to SPIRITUALLY feed on Him spiritually just as He was nourished SPIRITUALLY by His Father while in His physical body. And to top it all, right there at the end of John 6 it is JESUS Who says the flesh profiteth nothing, it is the spirit which gives life and His words are spirit and life!

206 posted on 02/16/2021 9:04:40 AM PST by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: MHGinTN

>> Upon completing the remembrance ceremony, Jesus referred to the contents of the cup as wine and said He would not drink again of the fruit of the vine until in The Kingdom. <<

This goes back to my main argument with Daniel1212: the tendency to offer an additional meaning and pretend like it negates the Catholic meaning in dispute. What you say is true, but in no way negates the plain language of what he said.

>> Read the scene in all three Gospels which record it. Jesus identified the ceremony as a remembrance fo Him until He comes. <<

Yes. But even here, he means “remembrance” in a very literal meaning which has almost been lost to modern English. To “remember” is to bring someone back to you; they become a “member” (part of), as opposed to simply returning to mind (”reminder”).

>> The salvation of the dead spirit is a spiritual reality, not a hocus pocus through the alimentary tract. Read John 6 again, noting how many times JESUS refers to believing as the measn to receive the SPIRITUAL nourishment. <<

Again, please read what I wrote to Daniel1212 about the fact that sacraments are physical-world signs given to us so the spiritual world becomes more perceptible/understandable/objective/concrete.

>> JESUS shows us the metaphor is just that by identifying the fruit of the vine after the ceremony is completed. <<

You keep saying the ceremony is complete. Where do you get that actually drinking of the cup and eating the bread is somehow some epilog to the real ceremony, rather than its climax? Do you not understand the ceremony he is performing is the ritual Moses taught the Jews so that they would be passed over by plague of the death of the first-born? By splashing blood on the doorway, they were marked so that they wouldn’t die. Herein, they splash blood on their souls so that their soul will not die. If someone performed the ritual slaughter of the lamb, but did not mark their door, would they be spared? Maybe, but only by some miracle beyond what is promised by the ritual (c.f., “the good theif.”) You certainly would never say, “Meh, the lamb was only symbolism. You don’t need to pour the blood on the doorway.”

And yet, what purpose did splashing the doorway actually achieve? Does God not know who is an Israelite without seeing blood on the door? The purpose was that so the world might understand the meaning of marking their souls with the blood of the lamb.

The Calvinist, pseudo-Augustinian* worldview separates the physical world from the Spiritual world as if they have nothing to do with one another; the Catholic worldview follows the Jewish and ancient Christian one in the belief that the physical world is a manifestation of the spiritual world. (*Called pseudo-Augustinian because Augustine in no way believed just about any of the nonsense Protestants have attributed to him.)


207 posted on 02/16/2021 9:21:16 AM PST by dangus
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