metmom:
Romans 14 offers an example of disputable matters, namely Jewish dietary laws; is it an all-inclusive list?
Jesus condemned *human* tradition, yes, absolutely, when such traditions countermanded the Word of God. But if such traditions are in line with His Word, and with His teaching as handed down by the Apostles, is it to be jettisoned?
“For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the Apostles.” - St. Irenaeus, “Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 9”
All Scripture *is* profitable for teaching, yes, absolutely. But at the time Paul wrote to Timothy, there was no New Testament yet compiled! When he speaks to how Timothy was acquainted with these writings from the time of his childhood, these would have only been the writings seen as Sacred Scripture by the Jewish people, aka the Old Testament.
When it says that all Scripture is profitable for teaching, does that exclude all other sources of wisdom? Does that mean the oral tradition of the Apostles is to be discounted?
Did not Paul exhort the Thessalonians to hold fast to the traditions they were taught, either by letter or that was *spoken* to them? (2 Thessalonians 2:2)
See here for a more thorough explanation: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/scripture-and-tradition
So, does Christ give any indication as to how disagreements are to be settled, or how offenses between fellow Christians are to be handled? As a matter of fact, He does, in Matthew 18:
[15] But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. [16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
So I ask you: what church is Christ referring to?
BipolarBob:
To say that God chose Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide for you is to say that such a doctrine was taught by Christ, by His Apostles, and by His Church. Yet ‘Scripture alone’ was not formulated until the time of Luther, and the book of James actively denies ‘Faith alone’.
You ask if God sent a message to flee the Catholic Church, would I listen to it?
The question I ask of you in return is, how do you know that message is from God? For we were warned of the wiles of the Enemy, as Paul instructed in his second letter to the Corinthians (chapter 11):
[12] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off the occasion from them that desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. [13] For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.
And what of Paul’s exhortation in the first chapter of his letter to the Galatians?
[6] I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. [7] Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
We are called to hold fast to the teachings of Christ and His Apostles; so when Christ Himself said that he would build His Church upon Peter, would grant him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it...why would I abandon His Church? Why would I abandon that which He instituted?
That is a presumption not evidenced. How old was Timotheus when Paul wrote the letter? How long had the Apostles' writings been circulating among the body of believers. I think that if you will do a little honest research for yourself you will find that Timothy was in his twenties and the Gospels had been circulating for a couple decades, birthing members into the body of believers for at least two decades since the Crucifixion. The letter to the Galatians was written within a decade of Saul's conversion, which conversion happened less than five years after the crucifixion.
I asked you earlier if you would obey God or the RCC. I am taking from your responses that you are sticking with the Roman Catholic Church.
This is just such a cunningly devised fable--a big lump of absolutely invalid eisegesis wrongly being presented as exegesis--that it makes any other justified and justifiable rejection of Romanism (and there are many more) pale in comparison. Based on this blatantly wrong supposition of interpretive authority, your doctrine has not only no standing to make your point, but is worthy of condemnation as to the insoucience with which it is presented.
The tradition brought into question here is exactly the same kind of "tradition" that you have learned from fallible Platonistic-tainted "patristics" and their uninspired writings, a misinterpretation of the Scripture just like those of the spiritually blind Pharisees and copyists that Jesus condemned. It is not one "handed down by the Apostles." It certainly is not one handed down by Simon bar Jonah (2 Pet.1:20-21,2:1-2, 3:15-17, the Apostle to the Jews; or by Paul (Acts 17:10-12; 1 Cor. 2:1-2,5); or by John (1 Jn. 4:1, Rev. 2:6 hating the clergy/laity scheme).
As clearly demonstrated by the Risen Jesus to Cleophas and his companion, and by Paul in the case of Timothy, and by Philip in the case of the Ethiopian eunuch, the existing Scriptures were sufficient grounds for knowledge of the Messiah Jesus to effect salvation through faith in Him alone.
Your case demeaning the effectuality of the Scriptures available to Timothy is unfounded. The Spirit-recorded words of the Apostle Paul confirmed that they had the power to save when their pre-Cross mysteries were spiritually discerned and displayed; which gift of discernment, though thoroughly trained in the Tanach by Gamaliel, Saul did not have before his miraculous rebirth.
It seems to me that your argumentation shows the same blindness of your Roman masters, not one of a spirit-filled regenerated child of The God who looks at things with the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:12-16, Phil. 2:2,5,8,15).
I have no confidence that your religious organization has preserved the Word of God faithfully throughout the ages, nor that y'all have the Spirit-guided mind to interpret such remnants of The Truth as it yet has. It has had to be restored (Erasmus), translated into our vernacular (Tyndall et alii), and made the Bible of the English Crown (James I, Stuart) for the global reign of Brittania in its greatest reach as a mission-minded nation.
It is clear that the LORD has raised a remnant that has continued to fulfill His desire to that they persistently follow the Christ of the Bible and see His Word preserved, proclaimed, planted, and pursued as He wishes.
They will not permit your line of credibility through supposed apostolic succession to prevail over and persuade them away from their personal daily experience with the Living God, and His Son as personal Friend and Master. The only ones from their midst who can come under your sway are those whose full and irrevocable committed trust in Christ was never recognized by them as His condition of reconciliation with The Father.
Please show us documentation of the oral teachings of the apostles that was not written down in Scripture.
Demonstrate that the teaching was indeed from the apostles and not added later by someone else who claimed it was from the apostles, and that it was passed down faithfully, without corruption, for 2,000 years.
Peter is NOT the rock on which Christ is building His church.
*Petra* is JESUS, NOT Peter, and that is according to both Paul and Peter.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and the Rock (petra) was Christ.
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm
1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.
Oh; is THAT what you are waiting for?
Here ya go!!
A direct question; along with a direct answer...
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
1 John 3:21-24 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Perhaps the one Rome assembled earlier in the ACTS of the APOSTLES would be a bit more to your liking...
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. "Brothers," he said, "listen to me. 14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 "'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18 things known from long ago.
19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.