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"Have you been saved?”
The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | November 16, 2014 | DEACON MICHAEL BICKERSTAFF

Posted on 11/16/2014 1:42:01 PM PST by NYer

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To: metmom

I repeat, you are free to believe what your particular denomination proclaims.

And I will continue to hold to my Catholic beliefs.


61 posted on 11/17/2014 1:34:40 PM PST by Bigg Red (Congress, do your duty and repo his pen and his phone.)
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To: metmom
We are not *imperfectly purified*. We have the righteousness of Christ credited to our account. We are as pure as we need to be.

Amen! How anyone can think, much less teach, that the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account is somehow "imperfect" is ridiculous. We are not justified by our works, but by the blood of Jesus Christ which cleanses us from ALL sin. Jesus is our place of purgation, our place of cleansing from ALL sin. The law of Moses could never make us righteous, neither could the blood of bulls and goats offered upon the Mercy Seat in the Temple. BUT...

    But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:11-16)

62 posted on 11/17/2014 1:44:25 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

You are free to believe whatever you choose.


63 posted on 11/17/2014 1:46:51 PM PST by Bigg Red (Congress, do your duty and repo his pen and his phone.)
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To: Bigg Red; boatbums

Sure everyone is.

The problem is, all the made up stuff of Catholicism isn’t going to do anyone a lick of good.

God revealed to us in Scripture what mankind needs for salvation. People certainly are free to exchange that for the doctrines of men, to the peril of their soul.

If you wish to put the catechism ahead of Scripture, it’s your prerogative.

But you can’t say you weren’t told.


64 posted on 11/17/2014 2:03:58 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

Get back to me when some Catholics come to your church and try to force you to believe what we believe.


65 posted on 11/17/2014 2:15:43 PM PST by Bigg Red (Congress, do your duty and repo his pen and his phone.)
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To: Bigg Red
You are free to believe whatever you choose.

Was that St. Paul's answer when the jailkeeper asked:

    The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household. (Acts 16:29-34

66 posted on 11/17/2014 2:17:54 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Bigg Red; metmom
Get back to me when some Catholics come to your church and try to force you to believe what we believe.

Because, of course, NO Catholic has ever done that, right? I'm glad we aren't living in the middle ages when that was EXACTLY what Catholics did. But, putting that aside, this thread was opened by a Catholic to mock and belittle those who preach we CAN know we are saved. Should nobody be allowed to rebut that assertion? Should we just shut up and let people say whatever they want about our faith and not have a chance to speak what we believe is the truth?

Did anyone FORCE you to read this thread?

67 posted on 11/17/2014 2:27:01 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

First, I hold only to what the word plainly states, not to analysts that are not even likely to be among Yeshua’s elect.

Of course it was before the final judgment; the final judgment is 1000 years after the passage in question, which is described to be plainly at the first resurrection, the only resurrection unto life, according to Yeshua. This would then have to be right after the last trump, so at that time all of the elect are in heaven for sure, for the wedding feast.

When Yeshua speaks a parable, it would be foolhardy to assume that it is set in any particular time, unless that parable deals with the first resurrection, like for example the parable of the virgins.

Paul’s references are to consciousness, which could be at any time. It doesn’t mean that one is immediately in heaven, since especially that is denied in other scripture.

All of the scriptures are one! If an interpretation would make a contradiction, that interpretation has to be incorrect.
.


68 posted on 11/17/2014 3:07:08 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Bigg Red
Get back to me when some Catholics come to your church and try to force you to believe what we believe.

And what Protestants are coming to the Catholic church trying to force Catholics what to believe

Does Catholics telling me I'm going to hell for not being Catholic, or the Catholic church telling me I'm going to hell for not being Catholic count?

Because that's what happens in real life and here on FR, and that's what the church teaches.

The only reason people aren't being forced to convert at the point of the sword, or under threat of torture and fire, is that the Catholic church has lost its political power to people who finally had the wherewithal to stand up to it.

But that hasn't prevented the church from anathema-ing those who disagree with it.

69 posted on 11/17/2014 4:20:58 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom; boatbums; BiggRedd; NYer
"It can't be an *interpretation* from Scripture because Scripture does not teach it. The Catholic church is teaching as truth, something with no basis, with no Scriptural support."

=============================================================

Here are some links I've collected which help to give a broad biblical basis for "purgatory", for anyone interested in checking them out.    (Freeper "boatbums" also made a point about "purgatory" in her post #56 saying, "I think many Catholics would be surprised to learn that there really is no consensus within their religion about Purgatory" (since it is not exhaustively described or documented) -- as, of course, "heaven" and "hell" also are not exhaustively described or documented -- but three of these links which I'm providing here (which contain the name "Jerry Walls", a Protestant scholar) illustrate that there is also not a real unanimous consensus among Protestants about "purgatory" either.)

Some Helpful Links About "Purgatory"




(Song -- "Whiter Than Snow")    
"Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."   (Psalm 51:7)



"If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.    If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.    Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?"   (1 Corinthians 3:14-16)



70 posted on 11/17/2014 6:44:51 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee." - St. Augustine)
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To: NYer; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; CynicalBear; Springfield Reformer; BlueDragon
3. Justification must be freely accepted by the human person (free will) Justification presupposes man’s free act of will to accept and cooperate with this grace. God does not force this action or state on man. Human freedom is a secondary, but, essential element. It is received by a person’s faith in Jesus Christ through which he freely accepts God’s forgiveness and righteousness. Justification makes possible cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. [cf. CCC 2002 – 2004]

Semi-Pelagianism is a weaker form of Pelagianism (a heresy derived from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome). Semi-Pelagianism (advocated by Cassian at Marseilles, 5th Century) did not deny original sin and its effects upon the human soul and will; but, it taught that God and man cooperate to achieve man's salvation. This cooperation is not by human effort as in keeping the law but rather in the ability of a person to make a free will choice. The semi-Pelagian teaches that man can make the first move toward God by seeking God out of his own free will, and that man can cooperate with God's grace even to the keeping of his faith through human effort. This would mean that God responds to the initial effort of person, and that God's grace is not absolutely necessary to maintain faith. The problem is that this is no longer grace. Grace is the completely unmerited and freely given favor of God upon the sinner; but, if man is the one who first seeks God, then God is responding to the good effort of seeking him. This would mean that God is offering a proper response to the initial effort of man. This is not grace but what is due the person who chooses to believe in God apart from God's initial effort. Semi-Pelagianism says the sinner has the ability to initiate belief in God. Semi-Pelagianism says God's grace is a response to man's initial effort. Semi-Pelagianism denies predestination. Semi-Pelagianism was condemned at the Council of Orange in 529.

71 posted on 11/17/2014 7:10:37 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Fascinating. Good luck believing this nonsense.


72 posted on 11/17/2014 8:21:40 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: editor-surveyor

I read your analysis of what you think Scripture says and I gonna hold only to what the word plainly states, not to analysts that are not even likely to be among Yeshua’s elect.


73 posted on 11/17/2014 8:25:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Heart-Rest; metmom
Here are some links I've collected which help to give a broad biblical basis for "purgatory", for anyone interested in checking them out. (Freeper "boatbums" also made a point about "purgatory" in her post #56 saying, "I think many Catholics would be surprised to learn that there really is no consensus within their religion about Purgatory" (since it is not exhaustively described or documented) -- as, of course, "heaven" and "hell" also are not exhaustively described or documented -- but three of these links which I'm providing here (which contain the name "Jerry Walls", a Protestant scholar) illustrate that there is also not a real unanimous consensus among Protestants about "purgatory" either.)

The words "heaven" and "hell" certainly are in Scripture. The word "purgatory", though is NOT. There doesn't NEED to be unanimus consensus for Protestants on Purgatory since that dogma is REJECTED. Even the Orthodox reject it! My point is that if your religion is going to make something dogma, mandatory to be believed, invent "rules" for how to get people out and other associated doctrines like prayer to departed saints, the treasury of merit, Mary being used to get people out, etc. shouldn't it be expected to have some sort of detail figured out before it gets cemented as an infallible dogma??? Even the meager attempts to appeal to Scripture passages for proof texts is inadequate and it is already known that the Roman Catholic church says she doesn't NEED to rely upon God's word since truth is whatever they say it is.

Maybe that's just peachy fine for some people, but it isn't for me. I know that what God intends for us to believe about Him IS contained in His sacred word and it won't be dependent on some people centuries later finally getting around to figuring it out.

74 posted on 11/17/2014 8:38:29 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: redleghunter; NYer; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; Springfield Reformer; ...
Justification must be freely accepted by the human person (free will) Justification presupposes man’s free act of will to accept and cooperate with this grace...CCC 2002 – 2004]

Except that even then it is not, but a morally incognizant infant (typically), or even a comatose person, becomes formally justified by his own holiness via sprinkling of water, possible even by a Prot.

75 posted on 11/17/2014 9:03:03 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Heart-Rest

Could you please post the verses here and present the exegesis to back up your conclusions?


76 posted on 11/17/2014 9:42:28 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: NYer; daniel1212; All
This grace is habitual because it endures and persists until we forfeit it. Man can lose this sanctifying grace by freely and knowingly committing a sin involving grave matter (referred to as being subjectively guilty of a mortal sin). [cf. CCC 1856, 1859, 2000]

Augustine on Final Preservation:

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. 1 John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

"Will any one dare to say that this perseverance is not the gift of God, and that so great a possession as this is ours in such wise that if any one have it the apostle could not say to him, 'For what hast thou which thou hast not received?'[ 2] since he has this in such a manner as that he has not received it?" To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God; and that it exists not save it come from Him of whom it is written, "Every best gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights." (Augustine, Treatise on Rebuke and Grace, Ch. 10)

"... the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "(Augustine, Aurelius. Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free WIll (Kindle Locations 45-46). Monergism Books. Kindle Edition.)

Justification presupposes man’s free act of will to accept and cooperate with this grace. God does not force this action or state on man. Human freedom is a secondary, but, essential element.

Augustine teaches that salvation is by "man's free will," in the sense that God illuminates the heart, making it alive again, and with love irresistibly draws the sinner to salvation. In other words, God draws us willingly, but it is impossible for a blind man to be given sight and to not see the face of His God. IOW, this is not something that man can resist, nor can it be properly said to be "cooperation" in the Roman Catholic sense, that they earned it. Rather, it is by the will of God entirely, without the "willing" or "running" of man: More from Augustine on this topic here:

“And further, should any one be inclined to boast, not indeed of his works, but of the freedom of his will, as if the first merit belonged to him, this very liberty of good action being given to him as a reward he had earned, let him listen to this same preacher of grace, when he says: “For it is God which works in you, both to will and to do of His own good pleasure;” (Php 2:13) and in another place: “So, then, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” (Rom 9:16) Now as, undoubtedly, if a man is of the age to use his reason, he cannot believe, hope, love, unless he will to do so, nor obtain the prize of the high calling of God unless he voluntarily run for it; in what sense is it not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, except that, as it is written, “the preparation of the heart is from the Lord?” Otherwise, if it is said, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, because it is of both,” that is, both of the will of man and of the mercy of God, so that we are to understand the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” as if it meant the will of man alone is not sufficient, if the mercy of God go not with it—then it will follow that the mercy of God alone is not sufficient, if the will of man go not with it; and therefore, if we may rightly say, it is not of man that wills, but of God that shows mercy, because the will of man by itself is not enough, why may we not also rightly put it in the converse way: “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” because the mercy of God by itself does not suffice? Surely, if no Christian will dare to say this, “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” lest he should openly contradict the apostle, it follows that the true interpretation of the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” is that the whole work belongs to God, who both makes the will of man righteous, and thus prepares it for assistance, and assists it when it is prepared.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 32)

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

"We know that God's grace is not given to all men . To those to whom it is given it is given neither according to the merits of works, nor according to the merits of the will, but by free grace. To those to whom it is not given we know that it is because of God's righteous judgment that it is not given." (Augustine, Treatise On Rebuke and Grace)

“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)

77 posted on 11/17/2014 9:46:07 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: boatbums
"There doesn't NEED to be unanimus consensus for Protestants on Purgatory since that dogma is REJECTED. "

=============================================================

Are you saying that all Protestants must reject "purgatory", as if that is a Protestant dogma?

Well, you might reject it, but it is certainly not rejected by Protestant Professor / Scholar "Dr. Jerry Walls", nor was it rejected by Protestant "C. S. Lewis" (and I suspect there are many other Protestant brothers and sisters as well who do not reject it, even though you do).

See this video, as well as the links to Jerry Walls other clips and book in post #70:

   HBU [Houston Baptist University - Dr. Jerry Walls]: CS Lewis on Why Our Souls Demand Purgatory

78 posted on 11/17/2014 9:46:15 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee." - St. Augustine)
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To: metmom

We are saved from the wages of sin.


79 posted on 11/17/2014 9:54:28 PM PST by Texas Songwriter (w)
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To: redleghunter
"Could you please post the verses here and present the exegesis to back up your conclusions?"

=============================================================

You want me to type thousands and thousands of words for you, so that you don't have to click on a link?

80 posted on 11/17/2014 9:54:56 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee." - St. Augustine)
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