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To: CynicalBear
>>>Paul told us that would happen after God had taken from the Gentiles a people.<<<

Is that what this verse you quoted means?

Rom 11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."

That verse you quoted is from the New International Version. The King James and most other translations read somewhat differently. This is the King James:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Rom 11:25 KJV)

And this is the Greek:

(4138) play’-ro-mah; repletion or completion, i.e. (subject) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (object) what is filled (as container, performance, period): — which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

Okay, what did Paul tell us? I, frankly, do not know anyone who knows what Romans 11:25 means. It is like asking 100 economists a question and getting 125 different answers. I am not implying they would not all pretend to know.

As a matter of fact, your interpretation leaves a lot to be desired. How can we, Jews and Gentiles, be fellowcitizens in the present tense in Paul's day, and yet be strangers until 2000 years later? That makes no sense. Take note in the following passage of the keyword "ARE", which denotes present tense in our language:

"Now therefore ye [Jews and Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)

That "present tense" can only mean that Paul was referring to the Holy Temple that existed in his days, and the Jew and Gentile Christians of his day. The alternative is to spiritualize the scripture to make it mean some other time period.

I believe that no one, but the Lord and maybe his heavenly host, really knows what Romans 11:25 means: they can only speculate. Therefore, we are left with interpretation by means of context.

To put Romans 11:25 in context requires other verses from the chapter, such as the next verse:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Rom 11:25)

And who was all Israel? Not many of those who would claim to be, according to Isaiah and Paul:

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. " (Rom 9:27-28 KJV)

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Rom 11:5-7 KJV)

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel… That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6, 8 KJV)

So, after all that, we can now ask, "who are considered to be the children of Israel (Jacob) and Abraham, Israel's grandfather?" Well, it was not these that John the Baptist confronted:

"But when [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Mat 3:7-9 KJV)

Nor, these that Jesus met in the Temple:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39 KJV)

So much for blood-lines and lineage. So who are the children of Israel (Jacob) and his grandfather, Abraham, and are, therefore, heirs to the promises? Paul makes not bones about it:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

The remnant of old Israel (aka, the election of Israel (of Jacob) according to grace) were Christ's, and became heirs, as are all Christians. However, those "elect" are another matter altogether. I believe they are the "144, 000" serving Christ in his temple.

Philip

121 posted on 02/23/2014 1:28:58 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Once again you fail to address the issue of the promise of God with regards to the “land of Canaan”. Until you can realize that the genetic descendents of the twelve tribes of Israel will once again live in the land of Canaan none of those other verses will ever make sense to you. I could explain till my fingers are raw but until you understand that Israel is the wife of the Father and the “church” is the bride of Christ all of scripture will be fog to you. Your explanation of it is certainly “out there” to those of us who do know the difference.


122 posted on 02/23/2014 1:50:00 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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