If you are correct, the NT Church was founded on something that didn't exist, because not one word of the NT Scriptures was written for years after the Church came into existence. You have it all exactly backwards. It was the Church that produced the Scriptures, used them liturgically, and distinguished between those to be considered inspired and those not. Jesus told the Apostles to spread out through the world, to teach, and to baptize. In other words, to be the Church. The Scriptures they wrote contain not one word from Jesus telling them to write one word.
Please consider these:
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. (I Corinthians 14:37)
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. For we write none other things unto you, that what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus. (II Corinthians 1:12-14)
Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction. (II Corinthians 13:10)
Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. (Galatians 1:20)
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: (II Peter 3:1,2)
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (I John 1:3-5)
Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. (I John 2:8)
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. (I John 2:12-13)
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (I JOhn 5:13)
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Revelation 1:11)
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Rev. 1:19)
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; (Rev. 2:1)
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; (Rev. 2:8)
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; (Rev. 2:12)
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; (Rev. 2:18)
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. (Rev. 3:1)
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;(Rve. 3:7)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (Rve. 3:14)
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (Rev. 14:13)
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev. 19:9)
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev. 21:5)
AM: If you are correct, the NT Church was founded on something that didn't exist, because not one word of the NT Scriptures was written for years after the Church came into existence. You have it all exactly backwards. It was the Church that produced the Scriptures, used them liturgically, and distinguished between those to be considered inspired and those not.
He is correct. Scripture certainly did exist before the RCC came along and claimed to have written it.
Jesus referred to it plenty of times in the Gospels. Paul referred to Scripture in his letters, when talking to Timothy. The Bereans were commended for searching the Scripture daily to see if those things Paul was teaching were so.
And what scripture would that be? What we call the OT.
The Catholic church simply cannot take credit for that. Nor is anyone else accepting their taking credit for the rest of the NT which was written primarily by Jewish people. Claiming they are Catholic retroactively is simply a bid to claim authority over Scripture and it's obvious what's going on there.
Well then , if you are correct then Rome is even more a radically different church, since it did not recognize the multitudinous quotes and references to Scripture which came before it, and the books thereof which make up the bulk of out Bible, and thus Christianity has less of a historical Scriptural foundation than Islam.
Of course this is absurd. Scripture is not restricted to the OT, nor was there no authoritative reference to Scripture before Rome provided her indisputable canon (which took over 1400 years after the last book was written).
Thus when I said that the church began upon scriptural substantiation, by which the Lord Jesus and his apostles establish their truth claims, I am being entirely correct.
And in addition, as Old Testament Scripture provides for writings and as well as men of God being recognized as such, which was essentially do to their unique enduring divine qualities and attestation - and which did not require an assuredly infallible magisterium - therefore it provides for the New Testament additions being recognized as holy writ as well.
Almighty God provided abundant supernatural divine attestation of the authority of Moses, confirmatory of the faith of Abraham, and whose (Moses) writings became the standard for obedience and testing truth claims, with additional complementary writings being recognized as divine and being added to what he wrote.
Like men of God, the powers that be are to affirm this stature, but whether they do or do not, both men and writings of God are what they are, and God often raised up men from without the magisterium to reprove it, but whom the latter often rejected. And therefore the church began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses, and rejected the authority of the Son of God. (Mk. 11:28-33)
You have it all exactly backwards. It was the Church that produced the Scriptures, used them liturgically, and distinguished between those to be considered inspired and those not.
Rather, you are exalting your church above the Scriptures, not only ignoring that the bulk of the Bible we hold was established as Scripture before there ever was a church of Rome, but in essence what you are doing is making the church the supreme authority, not Scripture upon which the church establishes its truth claims.
For while the church did recognize writings as being of God, this affirmation required conformity with that which was previously written and was already established as being of God. In other words Old Testament Scripture, upon which substantiation Christ and the apostles establishes truth claims, (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.) was the judge of the new, which was complementary to and conflationary with it.
And if recognizing writings as being of God makes one the supreme authority, in the form of the magisterium, then the church should have submitted to the scribes and the Pharisees.
Jesus told the Apostles to spread out through the world, to teach, and to baptize. In other words, to be the Church. The Scriptures they wrote contain not one word from Jesus telling them to write one word.
You are uncritically parroting an invalid RC polemic, which in essence makes the written word superfluous, for what you are saying with your argument from silence is that to be the church is simply to spread the word, but not write it. And yet you invoke the written word in order to do so. And which presumes that in order to spread the word of God, and for us to know about it, then the written word was not necessary or superfluous. And which in essence reveals the attitude of many Catholics, for indeed , actual scriptural warrant for many of her doctrines is indeed superfluous, as you yourself presumes to be the supreme authority. But which is cultic not Christian.
However, the fact is that we know about Christ because of what is written.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)
In addition, the "Jesus only" hermeneutic is itself invalid, for the Lord said nothing specific about many things, thus homosexuals employ this "red letter hermeneutic" enough to justify their perverse love. However, as seen from the below, even only using the red letter hermeneutic, it is clear that He established His truth claims upon scriptural substantiation and upheld the written word as being the assured word of God.
For it was not tradition that he quoted to the devil in stating that, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4) but "it is written." Nor was it tradition that he opened the eyes of the disciples to, but the Scriptures, and in doing so and affirmation of the tripartite Palestinian Canon is indicated.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44)
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45)
And rather than the written word being superfluous, both Christ and the writers of the Gospels abundantly referenced the Old Testament:
Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56; 27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24; 3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24
Moreover, the Lord specifically stated that He had many more things to say, which he promised to add, (Jn. 16:12-14) and in which is seen even more references to the the old Testament.
Therefore, the written word is the assured word of God, and it was by scriptural substantiation the church established it's truth claims, and not under the premise of an perpetual assuredly infallible magisterium of men being the supreme authority on truth. which again, is cultic.
You must ask yourself, how did men have assurance that and itinerant preacher was the Christ when he was rejected by those who had were the stewards of Scripture, having historical dissent, and inheritor of the promises of God? (Rm. 3:2; 9:4).
First of all, Daniel is correct, it's catholics who cannot understand because of not knowing, understanding and BELIEVING God's Word. Since it's not their final authority, they don't take it seriously due to deceptive man made teaching.
First of all, The WORD always was. Secondly, you are to seek Jesus and HE is ALSO in the OT which was written at the time. Satan manipulated God's WORD from the beginning and deceived Adam/Eve. And once JESUS came in the flesh, he tried to seduce Him in the flesh and Jesus said It is Written and commanded satan to get behind Him. Satan had no clue at the time what sweet loving Jesus The Word in the flesh would be doing to 'undo' sin/evil in the spirit.
Now since Jesus died for our sin nature and Christianity was spreading throughout the world, satan got those who wanted power and control; and thus Catholicism was born. He needed a place to manipulate The Word once more. We know what come out of Rome/Vatican with their horrid history of killings, manipulations, man-made teachings, being forced to release the chains off the bible and then, hunting down Luther and others because they exposed them/CC because the Spirit revealed knowledge of The Word to Luther and others.
satan mimics God...God spoke to Adam, satan spoke to Eve. Jesus started a Spiritual Church, satan starts a worldly church, God gave us HIA Word, evil has it's own word - man-made teachings.
Jesus came to give us LIFE and more abundantly and those who are born again OF THE SPIRIT will reign with HIM forever.
Satan cames to kill/rob/destroy and the natural man, born of the flesh, with their belief in man made teachings will live with him in the pit forever.
You have it all exactly backwards. It was the Church that produced the Scriptures,
That's major deceptive teaching from the Counterfeit church. Catholics cannot know Scripture is GOD's Word; for to say the CC produced the Scriptures is totally in defiance for The WORD always was! Jesus is The Word who came in the flesh! So, basically, Satan in his 'angel of light' form is telling catholics the CC produced Jesus and they believe and repeat it! THINK!!
Here's what the spirit of satan through The Vatican/Popes tells catholics - that the catholic church produced this...
"The WORD of GOD is ALIVE and ACTIVE. Sharper than any double-edged sword, IT penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
Satan's throne is The Vatican and all the hierarchy and pew warmers are worshiping satan - just like satan said he would be worshiped.
Isaiah 14 …12"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13"But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
It is NOT rocket science to know who the spirit is behind the Vatican.…Satan himself with all his filth, LIES/deception.