Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

How Can Mary Hear Thousands Simultaneously?
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | October 31, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 12/15/2013 2:24:52 AM PST by GonzoII

How Can Mary Hear Thousands Simultaneously?


In his 1999 book, Evangelical Answers – A Critique of Current Roman Catholic Apologists, Eric Svendsen claims the Catholic Church makes Mary into not just a god, but the God:

Suppose someone in the United States were to pray to Mary at a certain time during the day. Suppose further that, at exactly that same moment, someone in Europe begins also to pray to Mary… suppose at that same moment hundreds of thousands of devoted Catholics all over the world begin praying the rosary… In order for Mary to hear all those prayers at once she would have to be omniscient (“all-knowing”)—an attribute that is the property of God alone.

The simplest Catholic response would be to first reference Rev. 5:8:

And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…

Catholics simply believe this text of Scripture. These twenty-four elders are human beings in heaven and they are depicted as “each one [having] vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (emphasis added). Each one of them was responding to multiple prayers from multiple people. What does that mean? It means these saints in heaven somehow have the power to do what Eric Svendsen claims to be “the property of God alone.” Obviously, it is not. We would do well to recall the words of Sacred Scripture at this juncture: “With God all things are possible” (cf. Luke 1:37). If we have faith, we will have no problem with believing God’s word over our own feeble and fallible intellects.

Moreover, we also see this same ministry being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Not only are the saints and angels depicted as hearing the prayers of multiple people at the same time, but these prayers are then taken to God and they affect change on the earth as symbolized by the “peals of thunder, loud noises, etc.” I once had a Protestant pastor I was debating say to me when I presented this text to him, “There is no evidence that these saints and angels hear and comprehend those prayers. They just take them to God.” Obviously, the language of “being given incense” representing the prayers of the saints is metaphorical. One cannot “grab a hold of prayers” without knowing what they are any more than one can grab a handful of incense. In order for these pure spirits in heaven to “take prayers” to God, they must be intellectually comprehended and then communicated.

And when you think about it, why wouldn’t they? If Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God and “he always lives to make intercession for [us]” as Hebrews 7:25 says, would not the angels and saints want to do what Jesus does? I John 3:1-2 says if or when we get to heaven, “We will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” Why would the saints in heaven see Jesus interceding for us on earth and just sit around and watch him without joining in on the prayer? They would want to do what Jesus does and Jesus would want them to do what he does as well. That’s what “following Jesus” is all about!

LET’S GET METAPHYSICAL

But we still haven’t answered Svendsen’s main objection. We need to demonstrate the reasonableness of Rev. 5:8. If infinite power is required for the saints and angels in heaven to hear multiple prayers simultaneously, it is true, only God would be up to the task. Even more, God could not communicate this power outside of the godhead because that would be tantamount to creating another infinite God, which is absurd. God alone is the one, true and infinite God by nature and there can be no other (cf. Is. 45:22).

So, would it require infinite power to hear the prayers of, let’s say, one billion people at the same time? The answer is no. One billion is a finite number. So it would not require infinite power. If we take a look at this universe of ours and consider that we are beings on one planet in one solar system amid billions of stars in one galaxy among billions of galaxies, we are a drop in the ocean next to the vastness of space. All the power a saint, like Mary, would need would be enough to hear just these little creatures on this one little blue dot called “earth.” We are not even in the ballpark of “infinite power” here.

I have to give Eric Svendsen credit because in response to my colleague, Patrick Madrid, who made this very same argument that I just made, Eric Svendsen makes a very insightful critique:

But Madrid’s suggestion creates so many consequent theological difficulties that it is difficult to believe he could be satisfied with it. One may as well argue that omniscience is not needed even by God himself since all things that can be known—no matter how many—are nevertheless limited to a finite number.

In spite of Madrid’s assertions to the contrary, one must indeed be omniscient or omnipresent (or both) before he can hear more than one prayer at a time.

When Svendsen says “omniscience is not needed even by God himself,” he betrays a lack of understanding of the Catholic and biblical position on this matter. Apart from a gift of grace, it would be impossible for created, human nature to be able to hear the prayers of millions at once and to be able to respond to them all. In fact, I argue it would be beyond unaided angelic power as well. God alone can do these things by nature and absolutely.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers this question succinctly when he says the ability to perform actions that transcend nature comes from a “created light of glory received into [the] created intellect.” It would require infinite power to “create the light” or the grace given to empower men and angels to act beyond their given natures. Only God can do that. But it does not require infinite power to passively receive that light. As long as what is received is not infinite by nature or does not require infinite power to comprehend or to be able to act upon, it would not be beyond men or angel’s ability to receive. Therefore, we can conclude this “created light” given by God to empower men and angels to be able hear millions of prayers and respond to them simultaneously is reasonable as well as biblical.

If you want much more information on this topic, check out my CD set called “Friends in High Places” available here.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: communionofsaints; mary; ourlady; prayer; timstaples; virginmary
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-103 next last

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Num 11:23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand
waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass
unto thee or not.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and
the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is
nothing too hard for thee.

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible.

1 posted on 12/15/2013 2:24:52 AM PST by GonzoII
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

Mary lives in eternity. Her relationship to time is therefore not like ours. The objection that she cannot do this and that “simultaneously” is therefore meaningless.


2 posted on 12/15/2013 2:31:13 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
"Her relationship to time is therefore not like ours."

Thank you Father Mac.

3 posted on 12/15/2013 3:14:20 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

This sort of question seems trivial compared to more serious questions of faith.


4 posted on 12/15/2013 3:37:54 AM PST by oblomov
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

yes. Time is part of creation.

I do hear peculiar comments from many that the saints in Heaven and God Himself are moving through time, just as we are. Silly.

And if one tried to define eternity, it is not, “an infinite amount of time.” It is closer to “an absence of time.”


5 posted on 12/15/2013 3:53:05 AM PST by campaignPete R-CT (SOV? Strength of Victory. h2h? head-to-head)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII
In order for Mary to hear all those prayers at once she would have to be omniscient (“all-knowing”)—an attribute that is the property of God alone.

Even if we accept that the saints and angels are in time in the same manner as we are, it does not follow that Mary would have to be omniscient; knowing a lot isn't the same as knowing everything. Even though there are MANY prayers offered, there are not an infinite number.
6 posted on 12/15/2013 4:21:47 AM PST by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: campaignPete R-CT
"And if one tried to define eternity, it is not, “an infinite amount of time.” It is closer to “an absence of time.”

That's a good way to put it....still a mystery for us this side of the Jordan.

7 posted on 12/15/2013 4:31:50 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: oblomov
This sort of question seems trivial compared to more serious questions of faith.

And yet it divides Christians from one another. That makes it far from trivial. All denominations agree on at least 95% of doctrine so we tend to argue over the fringes. Whatever divides God's House is not a minor issue.

8 posted on 12/15/2013 4:45:19 AM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

Sometimes you give the Sunnis and Shiites a run for their money.


9 posted on 12/15/2013 5:05:52 AM PST by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan

If the NSA can do it, why not Mary?


10 posted on 12/15/2013 5:15:09 AM PST by ThePatriotsFlag (...and to the Republic for which it stood.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

The power of God dims our human perceptions. Praise God that He knows what is happening all over the world.


11 posted on 12/15/2013 5:33:30 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers. If the saints can hear us pray - why not pray to the one closest to Christ?


12 posted on 12/15/2013 6:07:23 AM PST by epluribus_2 (he had the best mom - ever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: epluribus_2
We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers. If the saints can hear us pray - why not pray to the one closest to Christ?

Symantics. You are still praying TO Mary. She has nothing to do with you any longer. Christ is the one to whom we pray. There is NO mediator between man and God except Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5). Anything else is heresy.

13 posted on 12/15/2013 7:06:06 AM PST by rjsimmon (1-20-2013 The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: ThePatriotsFlag
"If the NSA can do it, why not Mary?"

Lol.

14 posted on 12/15/2013 7:06:10 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

“And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”

The Elders and the 4living creatures HOLD THE PRAYERS BEFORE CHRIST.

Nowhere are the prayers DIRECTED to the elders or creatures.
Nowhere is it written that they HEARD the prayers.

Roman eisogesis fail.


15 posted on 12/15/2013 7:49:50 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion
"And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”"

"The Elders and the 4living creatures HOLD THE PRAYERS
BEFORE CHRIST.

Nowhere are the prayers DIRECTED to the elders or creatures. Nowhere is it written that they HEARD the prayers.

Roman eisogesis fail."

----------

The rising smoke of incense is a visible sign of prayers
ascending to God, so they are obviously actual prayers,
and not their own, but rather those of the Saints the knowledge
of which they have come to know:

Ps 141:2 Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight; the lifting up of my hands, as evening sacrifice.

16 posted on 12/15/2013 9:08:12 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

Repeat Roman Eisogesis Fail

“—————

The rising smoke of incense is a visible sign of prayers
ascending to God, so they are obviously actual prayers,
and not their own, but rather those of the Saints the knowledge
of which they have come to know:”

Nothing says the elders KNOW anything about what they hold.
Further, the prayers are from those under the alter who have been martyred in during the end times judgements.


17 posted on 12/15/2013 9:15:02 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: GonzoII

She can’t.

She’s not God.


18 posted on 12/15/2013 9:24:54 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion
"Nothing says the elders KNOW anything about what they hold."

When one offers prayer he obviously knows what he is saying.

19 posted on 12/15/2013 9:27:57 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: rjsimmon
Luke 11:1-13 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” And he said to them, “When you pray, say:

Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”

And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’?

I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Hebrews 4:14-16 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus tells us clearly that God the Father Himself will hear and answer our prayers Himself.

The only reason people could have for praying to someone else is because they don't believe that God says what He means, or that He doesn't care enough to be bothered, or that He just won't answer and they think that they can get from someone else what God Himself won't give them.

20 posted on 12/15/2013 9:38:04 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-103 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson