Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending megachurches. We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didnt articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so spiritual and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: Dont you miss the Eucharist?
This question didnt phase them one bit. Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.
But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?
I may as well have said, Dont you know that there are Martians in my back pocket. She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I dont mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We cant say, Well, we have the Eucharist – so youre forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday. We cant keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Um, Scripture promises the Holy Spirit to guide us.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But, as it is written, What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
I could just as easily say that your hidebound and stubborn desire to cling to Luther and his man-made traditions has blinded you to the plain sense of the Scriptures you seek to hold alone... and that, until you have a change of heart, youll never be able to grasp the truth.
Luther who? I don't *cling* to Luther. He has no effect or affect on my spiritual life.
My *church* does not demand fidelity to him or adherence to his doctrines of pronouncements under penalty of ex-communication or eternal damnation.
Luther was an instrument God used to shake up things spiritually a long time ago.
My beliefs are based on my reading of the Bible, not influenced by him. I never have read any of his works and I really don't care to.
Everything we need for coming to Christ for salvation and growing and maturing in Him is found in Scripture. If it's outside Scripture and lines up with Scripture, then it's redundant. If it's outside Scripture and contradicts Scripture, it's a lie. Plain and simple.
It is my understanding that the Septuagint was rejected by Jewish Rabbis partly due to anti-Christian bias. The Septuagint was widely read by the early Christians. When the Old Testament is quoted in the New Testament, 90% of the quotations are taken from the Septuagint. Because of this, the Septuagint had to be rejected along with the Gospels, the letters of St. Paul, and the other books of the New Testament.
Numerology is a straw-man. Too bad, people aren’t willing to take a look.
(*sigh*) Friend, believe me... I’ve seen that before, and many of its variants. Years ago, a commenter on another forum (Hannity’s forum, I think) was trying to sell people on the “Seven-Fold Symmetry of the Bible Wheel” (which was based on the 66-book Protestant Biblical fragment). He was an exceptionally nice and kind fellow, but his reasoning was based on flawed assumptions from the get-go. Just so, with your example. It’s a bit like hearing someone say, “My 10,000-word thesis will be based on the fact that water freezes at 212 degrees Fahrenheit...”; there’s really not much point (after making sure it wasn’t simply an innocent typo) in going forward from there.
I have never heard of a Seven-Fold Symmetry. If you look closely you will find that there are but 63 books, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles were divided later.
>> When the Old Testament is quoted in the New Testament, 90% of the quotations are taken from the Septuagint.<<
I didnt realize they had found manuscripts pre-dating the third century AD to prove that the quotes were from something available at the time of Jesus and the apostles. How interesting that you now say they quoted from the Septuagint. The Septuagint, as it is published today, is basically the text of the Old Testament as it appears in Codex B. No one has produced a Greek copy of the Old Testament written before 300 A.D.
Those in this conversation may want to do some research and here is a good start.
http://www.scionofzion.com/septuagint2.htm
I hope you dont think your actually convincing anyone. Lets see what Paul had to say about checking on what church leaders taught.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Checking with scripture to judge the teaching of man goes back a whole lot farther than Luther.
>> If you believe that the Protestant 66-book Bible is the complete Bible, you're a spiritual child of Luther.<<
True Holy Spirit inspired scripture does not contain errors nor does the Holy Spirit contradict Himself. Lets look at some examples where there are direct contradiction between the apocrypha and scripture.
Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin (Sirach 3:3, 30).
Leviticus 17:11 states: For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Tobit 12:9 states that alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7)
How many more must we list to show that Catholics use books that are contrary to the Holy Spirit inspired scripture? There are many more.
In the New Testament there are 260 quotes and 370 allusions to the Old Testament. There is not even one quote from the Apocrypha.
If you believe the apocrypha is to be used as scripture you are a spiritual child of Lucifer.
First off, those doctrinal differences you listed are a result of NOT following Scripture, of setting themselves up as authority outside of Scripture. Unless you can demonstrate that they USE Scripture to back up their beliefs, then you can't legitimately attribute them to sola scriptura.
Not every issue is salvific either. Only cults make them that and that's a good way of ID'ing a cult. Any group that teaches something is needed besides faith in Christ, is a cult.
Additionally, there are some significant differences between the Roman rite and the EO, things that Rome says ARE salvific and the EO say are not. And both claim to be the *original* Catholic church with the other being the schismatics. Both the Roman church and the EO claim to use Scripture to back themselves up, so how are they any different from what you're condemning in non-Catholics?
And then there are plenty of offshoots of fringe groups of nuns and priests who are ordained or whatever they call nuns, and Catholics constantly remind us that those vows are irrevocable. *Once a priest, always a priest* is the byword. And these groups of nuns and priests are pro-abortion and pro-homosexual. And they're Catholic.
Romans 14:1-12 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Anyone who believes that God’s word alone is adequate for all things pertaining to salvation is a spiritual child of God.
They’re the only ones who believe that God is adequate, that the work of Christ on the cross and the Holy Spirit inspired word of God is sufficient for every need of the believer.
Those who think that God left something lacking will always go to something else.
Just like Satan said to Eve.....*Did God REALLY say....?*
Satan is determined to corrupt the words of God in any way he can. Catholics try to impress us with those church fathers they like to quote and parade before us. What they forget is that corruption of scripture by men started already during the time the apostles were still alive. They like to spout about some guy who was with the apostles but so was Judas for crying out loud.
Thats not even taking into account that Catholics think that anyone who is not Catholic is Protestant. Its actually a truer statement that Catholics are the first who protested what Christ and the apostles taught. One only need to show their non scriptural beliefs to understand that.
Seventh Day Adventists: (who believe that worship on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast)Does that help, a bit? I'm afraid I'll have to let you dig up your own references to the other Protestant denominations (Google works well), since this is fairly time-consuming; but suffice it to say that you (and/or your particular faith-group) are not the only one to use "sola Scriptura"... and, more importantly, there are millions of "sola Scriptura" believers who disagree with you strongly on one or more critical issues of faith (e.g. they claim that one's salvation depends on them).
Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.
Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (who believe that abortion is morally permissible)
Today, nearly five centuries later, Lutherans still celebrate the Reformation on October 31 and still hold to the basic principles of Luthers theological teachings, such as Grace alone, faith alone, Scripture alone. These comprise the very essence of Lutheranism.
Anglican Church(es), who believe that homosexual marriage is morally permissible
VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation. Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church. (from the Church of England "Thirty Nine Articles" of required faith)
Er... friend, if you’d like to continue a conversation with me, the “price of admission” is more civility, and less snark/irritability. Calling me a “son of Lucifer” is not a good way to get me to take you seriously... and the moderators do frown on those sorts of ad homiem attacks, by the way.
Then dont call someone a son of Luther.
Wow. So... in your book, “Luther” -— morally equivalent to -—> “Lucifer”. Gotcha.
I think I may just bid you a fond “adieu” for the purposes of this conversation, friend; if you change your mind about the irritability/incivility thing, do let me know.
Nah, I think Ill stick with the apocrypha being a ploy of Lucifer to deceive. As far as Luther is concerned, he was after all still a Catholic and held on to many of their errors.
Suit yourself; I’ll stick to those who’re inclined to be polite.
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