5 Things You Don’t Know about the Our Father [Ecumenical]

Interesting history here.

1 posted on 07/10/2013 2:00:52 PM PDT by Salvation

To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

2 posted on 07/10/2013 2:01:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

Thank you, Salvation. I love the Our Father.

3 posted on 07/10/2013 2:04:14 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds have been stolen.)

I especially like #5 because God would never lead us into temptation (old words), but he does “test” us.

Much better translation “Do not put us to the final test.”

“But deliver us from the evil one.”

The words “evil one” also used to be in this prayer. Much more powerful.

4 posted on 07/10/2013 2:07:54 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

It’s a perfect prayer.

5 posted on 07/10/2013 2:14:52 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds have been stolen.)

6 posted on 07/10/2013 2:19:58 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

A post a while ago talked about the word that is usually translated as bread:

The problematic word is epiousion. The difficulty is that the word seems to exist nowhere else in ancient Greek and that no one really knows what it means.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3034128/posts

7 posted on 07/10/2013 2:34:35 PM PDT by DManA

Because it refers to the Eucharist? Yes, I am aware.

Remember that Ecumenical threads are non-argumentative. Check the Religion Moderator’s homepage.

8 posted on 07/10/2013 2:42:29 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

Many years ago, I was introduced to the translation, 'Subject us not to the trial.'

That's generally the verbiage I use in my private prayers....

9 posted on 07/10/2013 2:48:58 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)

The post I linked to is on the web site of the Archdioceses of Washington and the author is a Msgr.

I referenced it because seemed interesting in the context of the discussion of the meaning of the Lord’s Prayer.

10 posted on 07/10/2013 2:54:07 PM PDT by DManA

That would work too.

11 posted on 07/10/2013 3:00:39 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

Many of the points refer directly to events in the life of Israel during his wildereness wanderings after the Exodus.

Quite fitting for a prayer imparted by the new Moses.

12 posted on 07/10/2013 5:35:28 PM PDT by lightman (Prosecute the heresies; pity the heretics.)

3. The kingdom is Christ: There are many ways to read the petition Thy kingdom come. Many believers rightly sense these words ask God to spread His kingdom on earth and also within our hearts—something we know will not be completed until the end times. But kingdom has an even more fundamental meaning than all this. Several Church Fathers identified the kingdom of God directly with the person of Jesus Christ, using term autobasileia—or “self-kingdom.” (Basileia is the Greek word for kingdom.)

Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" Proverbs 30:6.

There you go again...Your pope is adding to the words of scripture to change the words of God into his own private interpretation...

“Jesus himself is the Kingdom; the Kingdom is not a thing, it is not a geographical dominion like worldly kingdoms. It is a person; it is he,” Pope Benedict XVI writes in Jesus of Nazareth. Put simply, when we pray Thy kingdom come we are praying for the coming of Christ—now and in the end times.

I don't know where your pope got that but he certainly didn't get it from God...Of course Kingdom is a place with the King as it's head...If God wanted you to think he meant King instead of Kingdom, he would have said so...

Jesus is referred to the King over 20 times in the book of Matthew alone...Jesus is never referred to as a Kingdom...

4. Super-substantial bread: You wouldn’t know it from the English text, but smack dab in the center of the Our Father is one of the greatest Eucharistic references in the Bible. What reads in English as daily is the Greek word epiousios, a combination of epi-, defined as upon or fitting, and ousia, meaning being or substance. The word daily is valid translation, but the Church, at least since Jerome, has kept in mind an alternative translation: ‘super-substantial.’ (In fact, that’s how Matthew 6:11 reads in the Douay-Rheims.) Now what else could ‘super-substantial’ bread be but the Eucharist itself—bread whose substance has been ‘transubstantiated’ into Christ?

So daily is a good translation according to your pope but it just doesn't fit your religion's theology... your religion chose an alternative translation??? Nope...They ignored the words of God and and made something up to fit your religon's theology...

So how on earth did some translators get day? That comes from focusing on epi- as fitting. In that sense, epiousios refers to whatever is ‘fitting’ or ‘sufficient for our substance,’

How??? They believed God...

ἐπιούσιος

epiousios
ep-ee-oo'-see-os
Perhaps from the same as G1966; to-morrow's; but more probably from G1909 and a derivative of the present participle feminine of G1510; for subsistence, that is, needful: - daily.

It is 'needful' substance, thus; daily subsistance...Regular bread...

according to Theophylact, a Greek father. Still, this word cries out for seeing a deeper meaning

Sure, if you want to ignore God...

13 posted on 07/10/2013 7:51:40 PM PDT by Iscool

The words are thy Kingdom come. Jesus isn't the kingdom -- the Kingdom belongs to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

14 posted on 07/10/2013 7:59:55 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

Super-substantial bread: You wouldn’t know it from the English text, but smack dab in the center of the Our Father is one of the greatest Eucharistic references in the Bible. What reads in English as daily is the Greek word epiousios, a combination of epi-, defined as upon or fitting, and ousia, meaning being or substance. The word daily is valid translation, but the Church, at least since Jerome, has kept in mind an alternative translation: ‘super-substantial.’ (In fact, that’s how Matthew 6:11 reads in the Douay-Rheims.) Now what else could ‘super-substantial’ bread be but the Eucharist itself—bread whose substance has been ‘transubstantiated’ into Christ? So how on earth did some translators get day? That comes from focusing on epi- as fitting. In that sense, epiousios refers to whatever is ‘fitting’ or ‘sufficient for our substance,’ according to Theophylact, a Greek father. Still, this word cries out for seeing a deeper meaning. Other than the Our Father, epiousios does not occur anywhere in ancient Greek, ousia itself is a loaded word, and had the writer meant simply day, he would said so using the normal Greek term for it, kath hemeran. This is why the Church has stuck to its guns on the Eucharistic interpretation.

I like everything about this article on the Lord's Prayer but the above. It is true that the Greek word translated as "daily" in English was a word used ONLY in Matthew 6:11 and Luke 11:3 in this prayer, I don't agree that its connotation MUST necessarily be the way Catholicism has used it. From the source http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1967&t=KJV, we learn that this word means the "bread of our necessity" or "the bread that suffices for each day". Also, in context, it speaks of the nourishment which is ready at hand and suffices - food sufficing from one day to the next. Christ's hearers are bidden to ask of God, in order that they may themselves be relieved of anxiety for the morrow.

The impression I get from this prayer Jesus spoke - and I don't believe that this SPECIFIC prayer must be repeated verbatim - is given to us as He said, "Pray in this manner...." Our prayer life with our Heavenly Father should be all about an intimate communion with Him where our hearts are laid bare before Him in repentance, in gratitude and in love.

15 posted on 07/10/2013 8:15:27 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

Thanks, remember that Ecumenical threads are not for argumentation or antagonism.

16 posted on 07/10/2013 8:22:48 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

Thanks, remember that Ecumenical threads are not for argumentation or antagonism.

I wasn't “arguing” nor “antagonizing”, only voicing my own thoughts about the subject of the thread. I have my suspicions, though, that this thread is simply another “stealth” post to proselytize for Roman Catholicism especially concerning the “Eucharist” interpretation the author includes. There is a certain history operating here on this forum. Some people could see that as "antagonistic".

17 posted on 07/10/2013 10:02:44 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

The words are thy Kingdom come. Jesus isn't the kingdom -- the Kingdom belongs to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That's what I said, pointing out that your pope is wrong in suggesting the Kingdom is Jesus...

18 posted on 07/11/2013 4:44:32 AM PDT by Iscool

“The Kingdom of Heaven is within you ...”

A very profound saying, and something to ponder.

19 posted on 07/12/2013 10:42:34 PM PDT by BlackVeil

“The Kingdom of Heaven is within you ...”

A very profound saying, and something to ponder.

The Kingdom of 'God' is within you...

And there is a very profound difference...

20 posted on 07/13/2013 6:33:21 AM PDT by Iscool

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