Posted on 02/26/2013 4:03:26 PM PST by Salvation
Whoops. Replace “virginity” with “perpetual virginity after the Lord’s birth”. You must be an English teacher.
Context, context, context, my friend. Surely you're a deeper thinker than that. The context for the referenced passages makes it quite clear that Jesus and the other quoted persons are taking literally about another child of Mary.
John 2:12: "After this He went down to Capernaum, He, and His Mother, and His Brethren, and His disciples: and they continued there not many days." Disciples and brethren are mentioned separately here.
John 7:3-5 "For neither did his brethren believe in him." One of the stories that Catholics never hear, because they don't read the Bible cover to cover (only the parts the priests point them to), is that Jesus' biological brother James did not believe in him as Savior until his resurrection; after which James because the leader of the church of Jerusalem and died because he professed the truth of Christ. A lovely story which makes much sense.
Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the Son of Mary, the Brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?" Mentioning his mother, brothers and sisters surely has nothing to do with the general notion of a disciple being a brother.
There are at least another 8 similar passages where the context is clear. Jesus' mother Mary had other children.
And, lest you still be skeptical, try Mt 1:25:
And [Joseph] knew [Mary] not until she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name, Jesus!" Joseph didn't "know Mary" (in the Biblical sense) until after Jesus' birth.
Sorry, my friend, perhaps you need to do some delving into the Good Book personally. Good luck to you --
Did it ever occur to you that Joseph was older and may have had other children by a previous wife?
Thus these borthers and sisters could have been step-brothers or half sisters.
John 14:6 is quite clear, quoting Jesus: No one comes to the father except through me. Mary was chosen by God and deserves all the praise for her role as mother to our savior.
But there is zero Biblical basis for Mary as perpetual virgin and as a mediator between we humans and God.
Find me a verse and we'll keep talking. But I think you'll have trouble finding anything except Catholic tradition and the issuances of Catholic conferences dating back 1700 years.
Ditto for Peter as the first Pope, the doctrine of infallibility, and the fact that priests are holier than anyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Catholic and I'm not one of those evangelical Christians who believes that Catholics aren't saved. I just don't subscribe to the claim from the Catholic Church that only by THEIR church can I be saved. And I have the Bible to back me up on that.
And, by the way, I have never denied my Baptism. If the Catholic Church believes I did such, that's another one of their silly rules without basis in anything but ancient tradition. All churches recognize baptism from any other church, FYI.
That’s a good point but there are several Biblical citations of Jesus, Mary, and his brothers and sisters. Church history has it that Joseph lived long enough to be apprentice to Jesus in carpentry but did not live long enough to witness his death and resurrection, as did Mary.
Without further context, therefore, when Mary is mentioned with Jesus’ brothers and sisters (Mark 6:3 comes to mind) we can only assume that they were biological. Occam’s Razor even applies to Bible study — the simplest explanation is probably the best.
Now I’ll ask you for the Bible verse which validates Mary’s perpetual virginity.
And for the Bible verse which validates that Mary didn’t die but ascended to heaven.
It’s quite clear that certain Biblical characters did not die — Enoch and Elijah come to mind — so the notion that only the “holiest” among us don’t suffer death is merely a tradition and not Biblical. It’s also quite clear that Jesus was not the only man resurrected from the death who walked the earth after his resurrection. Lazarus and the soldier’s daughter come to mind.
So it continues to boggle my mind as to why the Catholic Church felt it had to create this tradition that Mary was spotless and pure her entire life. The virgin conception and birth was clearly foretold in several parts of the Old Testament, including Isaiah 9. But other than describing her as a “virgin” or a “maiden” in the OT there is nothing about the mother of Jesus after his birth.
And the NT is filled with references to her family, children, Jesus’ brother and sisters; also to Joseph having known (in the Biblical sense) his wife.
So the logical and simple conclusion is that Mary’s major contribution beyond traditional matters of motherhood was virgin conception and virgin birth.
It makes me ill to think that the Catholic Church spent years debating whether she was still biologically a virgin in her private areas even after the delivery of her baby. Uggh. Senseless and pointless.
The Bible is our authority, not any conference of the Catholic Church nor church tradition dating back 1700 years.
It would be more impressive and less lazy if you said some words on your own, making your case. I could forward you hundreds of links with thousands of pages with the opposite point of view. Do you really think that forwarding me a long Catholic webpage is going to convince me of anything? I glanced at it and, frankly, the basis for Mary’s position as cited by Catholics is pretty tenuous.
Do you know any Hebrew? Aramaic?
THANKS! I really believe that my mom believed in Jesus, had confessed her sins (through a priest, but a confession nevertheless), so I can hope to see her again! My father and brother are a different problem, I could not tell if they've ever been saved, so I'll be very thankful if you join me in praying for them!
I hope this is a useful perspective.
You bet! Thanks!
Actually, not only I did not deny my baptism but was baptized again. Only this time it wasn't something done to me at somebody else's request, but something that I chose to do, to follow my Lord and Savior. Obviously we disagree on infant baptism, but can you deny the validity of a baptism chosen as an adult?
Now, now, you have to start answering some questions yourself. Please cite your authority for Mary's Divine Motherhood other than "my priest told me" or "I learned it in Catholic school," both of which apply to me I might add.
But you won't outwit me regarding translations, since that is the inference of your question. My authority is the King James Version, which took decades to prepare and is as scripturally accurate as any English translation. Most modern translations are pretty worthless when it comes to real Bible study.
FF, I’d suggest you discuss this with someone who is more knowledgeable than I. Once saved you are saved forever. Find a local pastor who is willing to sit down with you at length and put your heart at rest. Also, if you learn anything more or different, let me know.
Read Luke 1:26 onward. It’s right there in the Bible.
Sorry, you fail.
How many Bibles do you and your family have at home?
Five, and I don’t fail in front of God.
BRW, I like your FR homepage. Where in northern CA were you? We were in Hayward, Fremont and then moved up to Auburn.
Finally made it north — whereas ut looks as though you are still in CA.
Five, and I don’t fail in front of God.
BTW, I like your FR homepage. Where in northern CA were you? We were in Hayward, Fremont and then moved up to Auburn.
Finally made it north — whereas ut looks as though you are still in CA.
**Once saved you are saved forever. **
So you can deride me, lie about me, commit adulter, kill a baby, not attend Church on the Lord’s Day — and you are still safe?
Not! OSAS is a false doctrine. Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins, but I also believe that I must live my life in line with the Commandments.
Have you ever done adult Bible study, true verse by verse Bible study? Such was discouraged by Catholic leaders for many years but I understand that it’s more common nowadays.
The notion of "once saved, always saved" has always been a bit problematic for me, but that's what makes studying the Bible so delicious. Adults can read it, discuss it vigorously, and interpret it, with or without a pastor.
There is one passage (forgot where) which says that Jesus does not lose any members of his flock. The context is the ones who have been saved already; Jesus wants everyone to be saved, of course, but only guarantees "once saved always saved" to those who become a Christian.
What about, therefore, those who become Christians yet have public backslidings, deny the faith, etc. Are they still saved if they subsequently enter the public square and cry out, "I deny Jesus!" I think the point there is that they were never saved in the first place. Because salvation is a personal contract, or relationship, between you and God, then none of us can look at another person and say, "Yes, he's saved." A person can say that categorically about himself. And he might be lying anyway to fit in or impress a crowd.
So if any angry and despondent, and saved, Christian, was tempted to deny Christ in the public square, the Holy Spirit might intervene to prevent that behavior -- the car might break down, or he stay home sick in bed that day, or whatever. Then, when the fit of madness passed, he would silently and sincerely confess the sin. So Jesus does take care of his flock.
As for all those sins you mention, yes, one can commit all those sins and still be saved. Jesus saved the murderer on the cross next to him. I love the verse in the hymn "To God be the Glory":
The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives.
"It would be more impressive and less lazy if you said some words on your own, making your case."
Yes but no. We can lawyer it up. There too many lawyers all ready on both sides of the religion forum. Been there too many times. It is mostly vanity ridden not truly Holy at times. May God guide us in these last days. Peace in Christ.
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