Saints [Catholic, Orthodox, Open]

FishEaters.com ^ | 01-02-13 | FishEaters.com

[narses]

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen

[aMorePerfectUnion]

D-fendr,
Again, my apologies for being busy the past few days (and have been sick) - and I too appreciate your spirit of reasoned discussion, vs. the all to common lots of heat and not much light that occurs in the religion forum. Though we disagree, I appreciate who you are.

Now, to get back to the conversation. You present two verses to attempt to show that saints up above are aware of what is happening on earth. The first is from I Corinthians 13 and the second Gospel passage about angels rejoicing about the conversion of a sinner.

This is just one dimension of our discussion and doesn’t cover any other question I posed to you, but let’s look at each passage and go further, if you wish.

I Corinthians 13

I’m sure you know that the context of this passage is the Apostle Paul’s discussion of spiritual gifts in Corinth. This section begins in chapter 12 and carries through the end of chapter 14. In particular, Paul addresses the problems occurring in the church of Corinth with the sign gifts - tongues, prophecy, etc.

Paul closes chapter 12 by saying “But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.”

In chapter 13, Paul begins to write of the superiority of love to the gifts. This chapter forms the immediate context of the passage you quote. Here is an outline:

v 1-3 - the necessity of love
v 4-7 - the character of love
v 8-13 - the permanence of love

Stop here for a moment, since this leads to the verse you cite. Paul argues in these verses that spiritual gifts are just for the present time, but that love will is both for now and forever. Gifts are a temporary provision for the Church, but love is an abiding fruit of the Spirit.

V 8 - “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.”

v 9, 10 - “For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away”

v 11-13 - “When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

Finally, to your passage. Here Paul continues his argument that the gifts are passing away. Children mature and grow in maturity. In the future, we will be mature and these things will be put away (gifts). Mirrors at the time were made of polished bronze (Corinth was known for making these mirrors), which didn’t reflect much detail. In the future, we will not rely on a reflection, but will be seeing God face to fact. Now we have limited knowledge of Him, though He has full knowledge of us. In the future, we will know Him fully as He knows us fully now... and of course, faith, hope and love will abide always.

Your use of this passage argued that “fully known” refers to everything or at least to that which is happening below. Based on the context, of the chapter and the surrounding passage, it does not teach that. The context isn’t about saints above knowing things below, it is about the superiority of faith, hope, and love to the spiritual gifts - and that something better is coming. Knowing God face to face.

D, having written that just now, I would observe that even if it did teach that saints above are aware of things below, it does not say they can hear us, that they pray for us, that they relay our prayers to God, or that it is advantageous in any way to pray to them instead of going directly to God, as we are commanded to do.

Your second passage is Luke 15:10.

Here we agree. The angels rejoice in salvation of a sinner who turns to God for salvation! Rightly so.

Unfortunately, your argument is that either we should pray to angels or that they understand our prayers or???

Based Paul’s revalation... “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”

We know they serve those who will inherit salvation - those who have entrusted themselves to Christ’s payment for our sins.
That is quite a different issue than your argument that we should pray to angels.

I’ll leave it there. I could take time to do an exposition of Hebrews, but we are left with these questions that you have not answered...

1. If we are to pray to saints up above, why are we not commanded to do so anywhere in Scripture? Even once??

2. If praying to saints up above is important, why is there no record or any Apostle doing so? Why didn’t isn’t Mary or any other believer in the Scriptures shown praying to a saint above? Even once??

3. Why are there no examples during the first 100 years of the Church of anyone praying to a saint up above??

I asked additional questions above that were not answered on this thread, so I won’t repeat them here.

Again, I appreciate the rationale discussion. I don’t expect to change a mind here any more than I expect to change the believe I’ve come to after numerous discussions that presented no evidence. I don’t know if you have additional evidence to bring to the discussion. If so, as I mentioned, I am always open to evidence. I have searched high and low. I’ve come up empty and concluded it is a practice that was added to the Church sometime in the second century - later.

Kindest Regards and best wishes to you in the new year.

ampu

[D-fendr]

Thanks very much.

An extremely quick reply to one point, more later...

Angel Guardian
Angel of God, my Guardian dear, to whom His love commits me here, ever this day (or night) be at my side, to light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen.

Guardian Angel Prayers

{^_^}