Posted on 01/11/2012 10:09:31 AM PST by Teófilo
I love your tagline!
Very well put!
We shouldn’t equate spiritual with “not real”. Of course angels are real. But that doesn’t mean they have bodies. “Real” does not mean “material”.
If something has a body, it is made of matter. It is subject to the laws of matter. It occupies space and time. Now get someone on here who has measured the mass of an angel, has found its wavelength, has put it in a tub of water and have the water displaced, and then we can talk about the bodies of angels.
Incidentally, there was talk in the Middle Ages of the planets being given motion directly by angels. There’s a longstanding idea that angels can *affect* matter in special ways, that I wouldn’t dispute. But the consensus is that they are not material by nature, and until we discover one in the material universe, it’s best to stick to that presumption.
And as far as the end days go, it’s pretty clear that the material universe will be involved in it.
No he doesn’t. I agree he knows the worldly manifestations of demons in the material world. He knows more than I ever want to know. :-). But he does not know how demons were created and all the details he wrote about.
Nor does "spirit" mean "immaterial".
Now get someone on here who has measured the mass of an angel, has found its wavelength, has put it in a tub of water and have the water displaced, and then we can talk about the bodies of angels.
True, but the author hasn't done any of those tests either.
But the consensus is that they are not material by nature
Consensus is irrelevant. Only facts matter, and we don't have any; certainly not to the level the author supposes.
it’s best to stick to that presumption.
Why? Says who? The presumptions of angels have ranged from Jesus' fellow members of the Bee Gees to fat babies with wings. Others have described them as 14-ft tall, fierce, and intimidating (notice how in the Bible that whenever an angel appears the first thing he says is "Do not be afraid"?).
Human ideas are human ideas, and there's nothing wrong with that, but granting this guy any more credibility than anyone else as he expounds on a topic on which he knows no more than anyone else is unwise.
” There’s a longstanding idea that angels can *affect* matter in special ways, that I wouldn’t dispute. But the consensus is that they are not material by nature, and until we discover one in the material universe, it’s best to stick to that presumption.”
They are material, but not materially perceived by the normal human senses. They exist in this same space at a different frequency that is normally not perceivable. Yes, they can affect matter in material ways as their higher frequency of consciousness has a greater influence over matter. This is also how Jesus did his healing.
I demonstrate this by showing how saying a prayer influences the operational frequency of a person and also how it changes their perception of reality. It’s easy to explain, demonstrate and test.
What instrumentation setup did you use to measure this 15 foot radius?
What did Sergent Friday say? " just the facts "
Just where did he gets his "facts" !
Thank you for your testimony, and may the Lord continue to bless you and your work.
There is great need for exorcism.
<< 2 Corinthians 4:4 >>
New International Version (©1984)
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
English Standard Version (©2001)
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
International Standard Version (©2008)
In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of the Messiah, who is the image of God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Those whose intellects The God of this world has blinded, because they do not believe, lest the light of The Gospel of the glory of The Messiah, who is the image of God, should dawn upon them.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. As a result, they don’t see the light of the Good News about Christ’s glory. It is Christ who is God’s image.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
In whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
American King James Version
In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.
American Standard Version
in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them .
Douay-Rheims Bible
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
Darby Bible Translation
in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them.
English Revised Version
in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
Webster’s Bible Translation
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.
Weymouth New Testament
in whom the god of this present age has blinded their unbelieving minds so as to shut out the sunshine of the Good News of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God.
World English Bible
in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them.
Young’s Literal Translation
in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
. Matthew 13:22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."
2 Corinthians 2:11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
2 Corinthians 2:12 Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Galatians 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1:11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
re: “In Scripture, it is so strange, that the demons (fallen angels) recognize Jesus Christ for who he really is, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Meanwhile the Pharisees, scribes, etc. do NOT recognize Jesus.”
I’m not so sure that the Pharisees didn’t recognize Jesus - but, you’re probably correct. They clearly understood His claims as Messiah - they also clearly understood His claims as the Son of God, and by extension, His claim to equality with God (remember they tried to stone Him for this on a couple of occasions). The demons understood and recognized all this about Jesus, yet were not “saved”. The demons did not repent nor call Him “Lord” either.
It is also true that the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin condemned Jesus to death at the trial because of His claims to be God - they saw this as blasphemy. I think they just didn’t want to see. They chose not to believe.
On the other hand, Nicodemus, though he had doubts, came to Jesus with his doubts. Somewhere along the way Nicodemus believed and accepted Christ as Lord, or at least there is evidence in Scripture that he did. It does remind me of the song lyrics that says “a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”. The Scribes and Pharisees saw all the evidence that Jesus was the Messiah, was Son of God, but refused to believe.
“He knows this because he’s an exorcist.”
I don’t mean to sound flippant here. Do the demons talk to him and tell him this stuff? Otherwise, where does he get it? Certainly scripture does not go into nearly this much detail.
“It’s only when people pass off these speculations that go beyond what is clearly revealed in scripture that I get troubled.”
I agree.
The Revelation granted to the Church in the forms of the Bible and Tradition.
Regarding Tradition, the Tradition handed down by the Fathers of the Church, and,
The liturgical Tradition handed down in the Rite of Exorcism;
The theological understanding of the angelic nature as understood from Scripture and developed by St. Thomas Aquinas.
The author's vast thesis research for his doctorate in theology;
The author's own experiences during exorcisms.
-Theo
The Bible simply provides little information on this topic, the author is making it all up, speculating with his own vain imagination.
The Bible is not the sole rule of faith and morals to of the Church, so we're not concerned that all this data is not explicitly contained within the Holy Book.
The sources, which I ennumerated before in a separate post, are worthy of credit, at least for us Catholics - and many Orthodox and Anglo-Catholics. Of course, one needs to be open and receptive to the full spectrum of Revelation God granted to the Church which ceased with the death of the last Apostle and is kept alive in the Church's oral proclamation and in Holy Writ.
-Theo
Perhaps I should've made clearer that I quoted and translated only Question #1 out of over 100 he answers, including a long case study in which he addresses many of these questions.
Please, don't judge Fr. Fortea from only reading his first, and mostly introductory, essay to these questions.
-Theo
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