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To: Avalon Hussar

“In the beginning, the Earth was a formless void, and darkness shown on the waters of the deep.”

A void means an absence of anything. Formless means without form. The “Earth” and “waters of the deep” are things. Either the Earth was a void in the beginning in which case there could be no waters of the deep. Or there were waters of the deep in which case the Earth was not a formless void.

Then there is the problem of two different versions of the creation of Earth. In one the oceans come about by a deluge from the sky and the other tells that the oceans sprung from the land.

Then there is the problem of Cain’s wife. Where did she come from.

Then there is the fact that God punishes every man for the actions of Adam and Eve which would fly in the face of justice.

Then there is the fact that the Earth was created before the sun.

I could go on. In order to take the book of Genesis literally you must suspend your consciousness. You must abandon reason. Now I don’t mean to start a fight, but I can’t let the argument that the Earth is only thousands of years old go by without challenging it. If faith means ignoring reality to believe something written over two thousand years ago that flies in the face of reason, then I want no part of faith. Our assumptions about the past are based on reason, not arbitrary whim. They are based on real evidence. I don’t begrudge anyone their right to believe what every they want, and I don’t think that I have all the answers by far, but I don’t think it is arguable that Genesis is not full of contradictions and to accept them as true “somehow” is to abandon my one tool to perceive reality.

Now I don’t mean to run away on you but I really have to get to work. Also I have said all I have to say. I’ll probably get banned for this but that’s o.k.


45 posted on 12/22/2011 9:05:03 AM PST by albionin
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To: albionin

“A void means an absence of anything. Formless means without form”

“Void” Strongs 922: “bohuw” - an undistinguishable ruin.

“Without form” Strongs 8414: “tohuw” - to lie waste, a desolation.


48 posted on 12/22/2011 10:12:45 AM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: albionin

“Then there is the problem of Cain’s wife. Where did she come from.”

His wife would have been a sister. The forbidding of incest only comes much later after sin had had its cumulative effects on humanity.


50 posted on 12/22/2011 10:25:51 AM PST by Diapason
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To: albionin
“In the beginning, the Earth was a formless void, and darkness shown on the waters of the deep.” A void means an absence of anything. Formless means without form. The “Earth” and “waters of the deep” are things. Either the Earth was a void in the beginning in which case there could be no waters of the deep. Or there were waters of the deep in which case the Earth was not a formless void. Then there is the problem of two different versions of the creation of Earth. In one the oceans come about by a deluge from the sky and the other tells that the oceans sprung from the land. Then there is the problem of Cain’s wife. Where did she come from. Then there is the fact that God punishes every man for the actions of Adam and Eve which would fly in the face of justice. Then there is the fact that the Earth was created before the sun. I could go on. In order to take the book of Genesis literally you must suspend your consciousness. You must abandon reason. Now I don’t mean to start a fight, but I can’t let the argument that the Earth is only thousands of years old go by without challenging it. If faith means ignoring reality to believe something written over two thousand years ago that flies in the face of reason, then I want no part of faith. Our assumptions about the past are based on reason, not arbitrary whim. They are based on real evidence. I don’t begrudge anyone their right to believe what every they want, and I don’t think that I have all the answers by far, but I don’t think it is arguable that Genesis is not full of contradictions and to accept them as true “somehow” is to abandon my one tool to perceive reality. Now I don’t mean to run away on you but I really have to get to work. Also I have said all I have to say. I’ll probably get banned for this but that’s o.k.

It would probably help if you could get the verses right. Let's start with the very first problem. You stated that “In the beginning, the Earth was a formless void, and darkness shown on the waters of the deep.” but that's not what the verse actually says. It actually states that "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Now, the difference is that the words we translate as "without form" actually mean formlessness, confusion, unreality or emptiness in Hebrew. Looking again with this understanding, we see that the Earth was without form (formlessness, confusion, unreality or emptiness), and void (emptiness, void or waste); and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep (deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In other words, the Earth was not yet formed into something but it was there because it was void, or empty. It was covered by water, hence why the Spirit of God could be said to move over the face of the water.

Now, on to your next point. There's not two different accounts of the creation. You need to provide proof of your claim, otherwise it just falls flat.

Next claim: Cain's wife. That's easy, she was his sister. At this time, the Law against incest had not been given due to the fact that the genetic pool had not been polluted enough yet to cause genetic problems.

Next claim: God unfairly judges all men according to one man's sins. Correct in that we're all fallen due to Adam's sin, but incorrect in that we don't have a way of setting that account right (Christ died so that all men could be reconciled back to God in the same manner that all men fell due to the actions of one man, Adam) and furthermore the idea that this is unjust is false in that our views of justice are inconsequential as we are a created being. Justice and righteousness is established by the creator, not the created.

Next Claim: Earth Created before Sun. And? This provides a problem how? We know that there was a light source before this time, we just don't know what it was or where it went once the Sun was created.

You seem to be trapped into thinking that just because we can't comprehend how something was formed, that it must not have been formed according to how it's Creator recorded it. Well, that and you don't have a good grasp of the actual text involved either. All in all, I'd say you've evidenced a marked bias against Genesis being correct without even giving it the benefit of actual study on your part. That's remarkably similar to the same attitude that is evidenced by Global Warming advocates.

55 posted on 12/22/2011 10:45:21 AM PST by Avalon Hussar
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