Posted on 11/04/2011 12:06:23 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Because if they ever learned what it meant, their house of deceit would collapse. Beginning with this argument over baptism.
The Lutherans correctly believe in infant baptism, the Baptists do not. both claim to follow “sola scriptura”.
the Scriptures are silent on the issue, although the verses you post can be read to support infant baptism.
the only way we can know for sure whether infant baptism is correct or not is to follow the teaching authority of the Church.
the Church has been here for 2,000 years and it knows what doctrines it received from the Apostles. the Universal Church from the beginning has always practiced infant baptism and the ECF testify they received the practice from the Apostles.
can anyone imagine the great hue and cry that would ensue if a Baptist minister was to baptize a baby in front on his conregation??? he would be declared a heretic and fired on the spot!!
why do we think it would be any different in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd century?
search Church History far and wide, you will find no arguement or disagreement on infant baptism.
that is, until the 16th century.
I have the Church Fathers and the Apostolic tradition that say otherwise.
Lets investigate your claim shall we ...
In time order ... who were the church fathers and their writings that occupied the church prior to 100 AD, the first century?
Answer:
1. Clement Episptle to the Corinthians
2. Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
3. Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
4. Writings of Ignatius
As a Catholic, you may be totally shocked that the first three ... the earliest disciples of the apostles! ... DO NOT MENTION BAPTISM AT ALL !!
None, zero, nada ... no mention at all.
The forth father, Ignatius, who wrote many letters, and whom many letters were forged in his name ... out of the 20+ letters with his name ... He mentions baptism a few times, almost always merely quoting Eph. 4.5, but saying NOT ONE SINGLE THING about mode or about infant baptism ... nor is the concept of baptismal regeneration even hinted at.
I have personally searched through each of these writings myself and agree with the conclusion provided by BeVier:
It is most significant that in all the extant writings of Clement of Rome, Ignatius, and Polycarp—the three outstanding subapostolic fathers—there is no mention whatsoever to water baptism in any form. This is not to say that they did not believe in or practice water baptism, but it is indicative that they did not lay the great stress on the ordinance that was present in the later fathers. This is clear evidence that these who were taught by the apostles themselves put no emphasis on any particular mode, but they did at the same time stress many other doctrines in their epistles. We undoubtedly should learn much from these early pupils of Peter, Paul and John and at the same time save ourselves and those about us a lot of time, effort, and ill feeling wasted on that which is not vital.
From: William A. BeVier, "Water Baptism in the Ancient Church, Part I," Bibliotheca Sacra 116: 462 (1959): 136-144.
Recall that by AD 95, the writing of the Revelation to John, Jesus Christ rebuked all but one of the seven churches! By 100 AD the church had already "lost its first love" ...
This romanticism that the RCC has with the early fathers has led to all manner of errors ...
I pray that the eyes of your understanding would be opened ...
Yes, arrogance. You’re going to stand before Christ and tell Him that you “legally” performed a physical act and that makes you “legally” deserve heaven? It ain’t gonna happen.
>> Jesus said “ I AM the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.<<
You obviously disagree with the higher ups in the RCC.
“We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).
Our gaze is directed toward you in great fear, to you do we turn with ever-more insistent faith in these times marked by many uncertainties and fears for the present and future of our planet. Together we lift our confident and sorrowful petition to you, the first fruit of humanity redeemed by Christ, finally freed from the slavery of evil and sin: hear the cry of the pain of victims of war and so many forms of violence that bloody the earth. Clear away the darkness of sorrow and worry, of hate and vengeance. Open up our minds and hearts to faith and forgiveness!” —Pope John Paul II Prays to Mary. Which he prayed publicly on December 8, 2003
Mary is given the power of Christ..... “All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth, so that at the command of Mary all obey even God . . . and thus . . . God has placed the whole Church . . . under the dominion of Mary” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).
Remember, if you don’t agree with the RCC you are declared anathema.
Was that the flesh of His earthly body or His transfigured body?
>>Catholics accept the plain and literal meaning of the biblical texts.<<
Oh really?
The RCC says.
If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).
If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).
Scripture says.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Gloria (an ancient hymn of praise):
All: Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
LOL! You kill me.
above is a prayer the “RCC” prays at every Mass, any mention of Mary there? note what is says about Jesus Christ:
for you alone are the holy one, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the most high, Jesus Christ.
got it???
are you Mormon?
you deny the Trinity and think the Church went apostate after 100ad, both hallmarks of Mormon theology.
see post #175 for what the early Church taught about baptism.
I’ll give you a hint. I wasn’t talking about bricks and mortar. The definition of “apostle” is simply “one who is sent”. Ergo, Christ sent His disciples which simply meant they were apostles. Anyone who is sent out to spread the gospel is an apostle. The RCC trying to usurp Christ’s true church is blasphemy.
It´s odd that Jesus the Jew never mentioned himself when he taught ¨Our Father¨. Instead he promoted yet another Hebrew prayer.
Good luck with that Churchianity thing.
You do know, don’t you, that circumcision never saved anyone either.
the only way we can know for sure whether infant baptism is correct or not is to follow the teaching authority of the Church.
If scripture supports infant baptism, why would I need the approval of the Catholic Church? It seems Gods' Word trumps all authority.
There is probably much that you and I would agree with, but we part on whose authority we follow, you give all authority to the church (Catholic), I give all authority to The Church, Jesus Christ and his believers.
God Bless
Interesting how that 200AD timetable keeps popping up showing a definitive change in the doctrine of the CC. Interesting how pagan influences started to creep in after that.
Interesting how “unanimous consent of the fathers” holds up also. Ooops.
But God has to listen to Mary per the RCC.
Mary is given the power of Christ..... “All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth, so that at the command of Mary all obey even God . . . and thus . . . God has placed the whole Church . . . under the dominion of Mary” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 180-181)
If you don’t subscribe to the edicts of the RCC on Mary you are anathema.
Got it?
From the promises that are attached to baptism in the Bible, we know and believe that the Holy Spirit uses this sacrament to work faith in human hearts.
Baptism is not a free pass to heaven, many who have been baptized have rejected this gift.
Circumcision was a covenant between God and the nation of Israel in the OT.
No I do not deny the trinity ... I am using your logic in claiming that if the exact word is not in the NT then the doctrine does not exist.
And that, if you were consistent with your own logic, you must reject that list of items I mentioned.
Right around the time of Origen, the father of the allegorical method of Biblical interpretation.
that is why God allows them to believe in Hell (Purgatory) because they have made Mary out to be a deity. Blasphemy! They earned their judgment in Purgatory!!
Baptism follows faith as an act of obedience and an outward declaration of the already completely work of the Holy Spirit in the believers heart. It's an outward sign of the inward work that already happened, that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which already occurred.
Water baptism does not activate or produce faith or the baptism of the Holy Spirit..
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