Posted on 11/01/2011 8:47:19 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth
...[T]oday's feast of All Saints is wholly different from tomorrow's feast: that of All Souls. Today, we celebrate the men and women who have entered heaven; tomorrow, we will remember the souls of our friends and family members who are being purified to do the same. Today, we pray to the saints in heaven with full confidence that they will intercede for us; tomorrow, we pray for the souls in purgatory with full hope that others will do the same for us after we are gone.
There's a big difference between the emphases (and purpose) of the two days.
Honestly, though, you may be hard pressed to find a difference between the way these two feasts are celebrated in your local parish. Today, the priest will wear white vestments - a liturgical color which denotes heavenly purity and which reminds us of the biblical descriptions of heaven, replete with white-robed saints. Tomorrow, though, you're again likely to see white, but then, the symbol is of baptismal purity. But it's not likely that anyone will bother to belabor or stress the (important) differences between the two uses of white, or even between the theological emphases of the two days.
It wasn't always this way...
(Excerpt) Read more at southernfriedcatholicism.com ...
How do we know who is in heaven?
The only people we can say for sure are in heaven ‘now’ - who are in full enjoyment of the beatific vision without need for purgation - are those the Church has identified as Saints.
Their lives and character are exhaustively investigated, and there have to have been miracles accredited to their intercession.
There are bound to be very many people who have died who are Saints in the fullest sense, who nevertheless we just don’t know enough about to formally declare them as Saints.
For the great majority of those who have died: it is prudent and charitable to assume that they are not yet fully possessed of God, and to pray for their souls.
Hope this is helpful.
I was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic schools through college and now in my 6th decade have come to question purgatory.......also limbo. Sounds rather strange to me now.
That is because purgatory is an invention of man and borrowed from pagaon religions. For example, prior to Jesus, the Buddists were offering prayers for the dead. A close study of Jesus’s teaching and that of the Apostles will show that they did not teach the concept of purgatory.
In fact, the concept was not even noted in Christian practice until the 2nd Century AD. It has been argued that in the Council of Carthage in 394 the practice of prayers for the dead was upheld. Thus, it did not became a significant part of Catholic theology until the 3rd Century as celebration of the Eucharist for the dead.
Further, purgatory as part of Catholic dogma only was officially adopted in the 16th Centry as part of the outcome of the Councils of Trent. Though one could reasonably argue that the acceptance into doctrine had long occured prior to the official affirmation of the concept of Purgatory.
However purgation :- the passage of souls through a form of purification to enter the full presence of God - is well-attested and supported by Scripture. It's best not to think of it as a place, but as a process outside of time and space.
If it's helpful: I would submit that purgation is entering the presence of God while not being fully ready for the presence of God.
Some are fully ready to enjoy: I might say withstand - the presence of God: because they are filled with Christ. We call those people Saints.
Others are completely devoid of Christ, and refuse him at the last. They cannot bear, they cannot withstand the presence of God. These souls stones cannot love but only hate. Their fate is piteous - if they knew what pity was.
And then there are the majority of the dead. They are willing to accept Christ, to be changed into beings wholly fit for God's presence - but they are to some extent unprepared.
Their change from preoccupied, somewhat selfish soul to transfigured Saint is the most tremendous transition of their existence - it is joyful, it is cathartic in the truest sense of that word - and it is painful.
That, I submit, is purgatory. It is a place/process of great joy because one beholds God - but it is mixed with the keenest sorrow and pain.
We who are saved by Christ will rush to Him: but many of us will come before him stained, mutated or twisted by selfishness, greed, wrath and so on.
These things makes us unable to be with God, and they will be removed from us - but the process isn't like taking your coat off or picking a scab. It's probably more like having a malignant cancer burnt out by touching the surface of the Sun. Ouch.
Hope this is helpful.
In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”
Also: 1 Corinthians 3:15: “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
Here are other passages that touch upon purgation
Hebrews 12:6,10
For whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges. ... but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness.
Isaiah 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."
1 Peter 1:7
The genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
The full text of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Hope this is helpful
Wow what a great explanation. You know your theology
There is no purgatory. There is Heaven and hell, that’s it. all purification happens in life. Don’t count on purgatory as a way to live poorly and still be saved.
you’re saved by faith alone, but the works of salvation should follow.
Remember the words of Jesus to the thief on the cross. He didn’t got to any purgatory, but went with Jesus to Paradise.
Second, every single text you quoted from the New Testament only discuses the removal of a sinful nature (purgation to follow your term). It does NOT assert in any way, shape or form that an individual, once dead has any opportunity to change their fate through either their own suffering or prayers offered by others.
In fact, Jesus and the Apostles taught that each of us will answer alone before God for our sins.
Romans 14:12 (AKJ)
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
There is no allowance for prayers from others, there is no pastor, deacon, priest or pope mentioned here. No prayers for the dead. Everyone, alone with their sins before God. At that moment, all will be laid bare and when the full weight of our sinful nature is made know, our Savior Jesus will intercede for us.
But so were the Jews. Are they "pagans," too?
I don't believe his name is recorded. Traditionally he is given the name Dismas. Or rather 'Saint Dismas'.
Dismas is an example of a Saint who to our eyes - like St Madgalene - appeared to come very, very late to the vineyard.
Not too late though. We can't be sure, but it looks like the first Saint in heaven may have been this penitent thief.
Imagine the scene of Golgotha. In all those horrific hours of the crucifixion one voice was raised in prayer and praise of the living God - and it was the voice of Dismas saying 'Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom'.
Completely and absolutely false. They were affirmed as canonical by Florence, 120 years before Trent, and by the local councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Rome around the time the NT canon was fixed (AD 400). They are also accepted as canonical by all of the Eastern churches who broke union with Rome 500 years or more before Trent.
It amazes me that people keep repeating this easily-disproven falsehood as though it were Gospel truth.
And, even if your error were true, it doesn't change the fact that Maccabees is Jewish literature, and the Jews endorsed prayer for the dead, as they do to this day.
It does NOT assert in any way, shape or form that an individual, once dead has any opportunity to change their fate
Neither does purgatory, so what's your point? Everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven.
Sorry, not falling for the attempt at baiting. My statement stands as presented. Pagans were known to offer prayers for the dead. If you wish to attempt to refute that simple statement of fact please do so.
Purgation isn't to be regarded as a substitute for Judgement. It is what happens to many of the souls who are Judged, as part and parcel of their Judgement. As St Paul intimates, some of those who are Judged will be saved: yet their work will be burned up.
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Jews prayed for the dead before Christ, at the time of Christ, and today. That's as much a "simple statement of fact" as yours was. If prayer for the dead makes one a pagan, then Jews are pagans.
Why would anyone want to refute that?
Many pagans believed in life after death. Where such beliefs existed those pagan theories were combined with a theory of judgement after death by a God who judges souls.
Should we stop believing in the concept of an afterlife, and of judgement between the Good and the Bad, just because the Egyptians also believed something of the sort? No, of course not.
Some pagans also adopted a belief in monotheism. Should we junk monotheism because e.g. the Aten cult got a form of monotheism first? No, of course not.
Pagans prayed for the dead. That's not wrong just because pagans did it. Instead it sounds like they were acting on a God-given instinct.
You are very kind, thank you estrogen.
All who believe by faith are saints. People are called saints left and right in the NT. The thief was saved only by his faith. There is no place mentioned in the Bible discussing anything between Heaven and Hell.purgatory is man made to help sinners feel better about sinning, rather than taking their sins to Jesus.
All who believe by faith are saints. People are called saints left and right in the NT. The thief was saved only by his faith. There is no place mentioned in the Bible discussing anything between Heaven and Hell.purgatory is man made to help sinners feel better about sinning, rather than taking their sins to Jesus.
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