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To: WaterBoard
Your implication was that celibacy was the norm for priests from the beginning of the Church, was it not?

No, it was not; it was encouraged and increasingly strongly. The references I posted included bishops such as Augustine who lived with their wives continently.

That’s is not a misreading of your post, but a deception on your part

I posted excerpts from a Vatican document quoting early Church writings and Patristic writings. I do not deceive and don't appreciate being accused of it.

1074-Pope Gregory VII said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: ‘priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.’

Nice quotes. Celibacy was initially encouraged, not mandatory; and I said that the belief strengthened especially in the West over time.

1095-Pope Urban II had priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned. (The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II in 1089 imposed slavery on the wives of priests.)

Not that I'd doubt your accuracy, but would you happen to have a reference for this claim?

The legitimacy of slavery is incorporated in the Corpus Iuris Canonici, promulgated by Pope Gregory IX which remained official law of the Church until 1913. Canon lawyers worked out four “just titles” for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave. )

Also interesting in terms of its veracity. Do you have a link for this? Please also note that in terms of slaveholding, very few Catholics ever held slaves in the US - it was a predominantly Protestant practice.

You wrote: “Thus has it been almost from the beginning of Church history. Your statement is wrong. “ This was not the case. Celibacy did not become a requirement until 12 centuries later.

Look up my posts. I never claimed that it was a requirement.

I for one believe priests should be celibate as you can not serve God in that vocation and a wife/family at the same time.

That is how the Church leans. Priests are encouraged to be celibate and bishops must be.

391 posted on 03/27/2011 10:04:24 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

I don’t mean to be critical of you, not my intention. I just love history and most people get the Disney thumbnail version.

Sources you requested:

1) The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II in 1089

“Wives and concubines were liable to be seized as slaves by the overlord, while the children were relegated to the category of servile rank, debarred from sacred orders, and declared incapable of exercising hereditary rights, because saepe solet similis filius esse patri.”

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran2.html

2) Corpus Iuris Canonici, promulgated by Pope Gregory IX which remained official law of the Church until 1913

Steven Epstein, Wage Labour & Guilds in Mediaeval Europe (1995), page 226

Here is another reference:

In 1488, Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon, and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility.

Luis M. Bermejo, S.J. (1992). Infallibility on Trial. Christian Classics, Inc.. p. 315. ISBN 0-87061-190-9.


417 posted on 03/27/2011 12:06:07 PM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: MarkBsnr

“Please also note that in terms of slaveholding, very few Catholics ever held slaves in the US - it was a predominantly Protestant practice.”

That is not really true either as many Catholics owned slaves in the USA including the U.S. Catholic Church it’s self, maybe not as many in volume as Protestants, they still were guilty of the sin.

“Two slaveholding states, Maryland and Louisiana, had large contingents of Catholic residents; however both states had also the largest numbers of former slaves who were freed.

Archbishop of Baltimore, Maryland John Carroll, had two black servants - one free and one a slave.

The Society of Jesus in Maryland owned slaves who worked on the community’s farms. The Jesuits began selling off their slaves in 1837.

Bishop John England of Charleston actually wrote several letters to the Secretary of State under President Martin Van Buren explaining that the Pope, in In Supremo, did not condemn slavery but only the slave trade.”


421 posted on 03/27/2011 12:12:50 PM PDT by WaterBoard
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