Posted on 11/23/2010 12:14:36 AM PST by Cronos
Right now there are churches in almost every country which call themselves Baptists on the sign out front who, nevertheless, arc not Baptists, but in reality are Pentecostal churches.
....Pentecostalism is the belief that the miraculous gifts or signs which the Lord gave to the Apostles and others in the early churches have not ceased, but are still available and are still being exercised by today’s Christians. Pentecostalism claims that God still gives these miraculous gifts to men today. Lists of these gifts can be found in Mark 16:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-11.
..God’s extraordinary gifts are called this in contrast to those He ordinarily gives in all ages. They are ordinarily not given, but rather were given on extraordinary occasions. These extraordinary gifts were supernatural gifts that enabled their possessors to perform supernatural deeds. Usually when Pentecostals today speak of the gifts or the charismata, they are speaking of these extraordinary gifts, that is, healing, miracles, tongues, direct revelations from God, casting out demons. Pentecostalism teaches that these miraculous gifts, these charismata, are still available to Christians today
(Excerpt) Read more at pbministries.org ...
I’ve longed to be “slain in The Spirit” for most of my life.
Never has happened. Has happened all around me.
Those I most respect assert that they were fully aware of what was going on around them, they were not blacked out. They were ‘merely’ in a hightened focus on God and God was evidently sheltering them in a sort of spiritual bubble that mostly blocked out distractions rather wholesale.
Many were healed in such experiences. Many had emotional or other relationship stuff healed. Certainly many had their relationships with God advanced greatly during such a period.
I did have, as a teen one time . . . standing in front of the front pew at my teen AoG church during an altar service . . . The Lord’s Presence was rather thick at that time. I was desperately seeking God as I often did in those years. Suddenly my legs from my knees down, just quit functioning. So I simply sat down/fell into the pew. Some have asserted to me that being ‘slain in The Spirit’ is similar.
Again—what’s the fruit.
The authentic always has good fruit. And that’s what I’ve observed in the services I’ve been in.
I don’t know why such an experience has not befallen me. Maybe I think to much. Maybe I’d become too focused on such experiences rather than The Giver. I don’t know. I just know there’s a real, authentic of Holy Spirit such experience that millions do experience. And Praise God He blesses them in that way as it has a wonderful impact on their lives.
There was another time in my teens when there was a particularly anointed and powerful altar service . . . and I prayed long and fervently in tongues. I remember feeling woozy as I left the church and my step-father sort of begrudgingly helped me down the long flight of front steps.
I think he was a bit skeptical and maybe embarrassed being traditionally a Presbyterian Dane. My mother’s mother and the Pastor and his wife were tickled and blessed to see me that heavily touched by The Lord’s Presence. They knew I longed for such and rarely experienced such. By the time we made the 2-3 miles home, I was no longer woozy.
There was a reason Peter said they were not drunk in Acts 2. It was an authentic, kosher, Holy Spirit influence that left them obviously acting in ways that others construed as junk.
Such happens today.
Does counterfeit stuff happen? Certainly.
Do people play act for attention? Certainly.
God seeks those to worship Him in spirit and in truth. that means with all faculties intact.
Sure.
However, it sounds like you have been life-long berift of a list of Holy Spirit birthed BIBLICAL EXPERIENCES that millions of other people have enjoyed quite Biblically and quite constructively to their walk with God.
Throwing rocks at their experience won’t rob them of a single thing God has for them.
You might hinder some reaching out sufficiently to lay hold of such gifts from The Lord. But that will have to be between them and The Lord and you and The Lord.
Your arguments are hollow and empty compared to the bonafide Holy Spirit experiences of millions of earnest believers in The Lord Jesus.
There’s nothing you can say to dissuade them from knowing because they know because they know—because they have touched the hem of His Garment, so to speak and are then never the same again.
God is actually fairly eager to give good gifts to His children as Scripture notes. He just doesn’t want it to get in the way but instead to enhance individuals’ relationships WITH HIM.
And, pride, !!!CONTROL!!!! FREAK STUFF, UNBELIEF etc. all get in the way of Holy Spirit’s moving.
***Your arguments are hollow and empty compared to the bonafide Holy Spirit experiences of millions of earnest believers in The Lord Jesus.***
This verse written by St Paul in the famous “unknown” tongue chapters shows it is FOREIGN LANGUAGES he is talking about.
1Cr 14:21 In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
In the OT the words “stammering lips” are used for the foreigners. It does not mean gibberish.
Here is an example of speaking in an “unknown” (to the people) tongue.
But then they spoke so the people on the wall could understand.
2Ki 18:26 ¶ Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand [it]: and talk not with us in the Jews’ language in the ears of the people that [are] on the wall.
2Ki 18:27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? [hath he] not [sent me] to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
2Ki 18:28 Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews’ language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:
Can the spiritually mature experience God in ways others can't? Yes, I believe so, but the HS moves as He pleases, no one *calls Him down* and that is what a lot of these preachers purport to do. It really is no different from Catholic priests calling Christ down to sacrifice on the altar. they are decieved--- Christ cannot be ordered about at the whim of mankind
So tell me, why is such an experience even sought? What is the need for it?
Isn't it enough to know that Christ died for your sins?
Yes, to be *baptized with the HS* is to be gifted with a ministry. It’s not a selfish thing to be experienced.
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 Let your[d] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. --KJV
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THE MESSAGE:
26-33So here's what I want you to do. When you gather for worship, each one of you be prepared with something that will be useful for all: Sing a hymn, teach a lesson, tell a story, lead a prayer, provide an insight. If prayers are offered in tongues, two or three's the limit, and then only if someone is present who can interpret what you're saying. Otherwise, keep it between God and yourself. And no more than two or three speakers at a meeting, with the rest of you listening and taking it to heart. Take your turn, no one person taking over. Then each speaker gets a chance to say something special from God, and you all learn from each other. If you choose to speak, you're also responsible for how and when you speak. When we worship the right way, God doesn't stir us up into confusion; he brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches—no exceptions.
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NEW AMERICAN STANDARD:
24But if all (AK)prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is (AL)convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25(AM)the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will (AN)fall on his face and worship God, (AO)declaring that God is certainly among you.
26(AP)What is the outcome then, (AQ)brethren? When you assemble, (AR)each one has a (AS)psalm, has a (AT)teaching, has a (AU)revelation, has a (AV)tongue, has an (AW)interpretation Let (AX)all things be done for edification.
27If anyone speaks in a (AY)tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must (AZ)interpret;
28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
29Let two or three (BA)prophets speak, and let the others (BB)pass judgment.
30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
What is the exegetical basis for the claim that Scripture indicates that the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters and does that exegesis apply the "analogy of faith" rule? I don't expect you to give me a dissertation on that claim but if you know of any agreed upon work that most Pentecostals point to as authoritative in this respect I would be interested in reading it.
It's merely the Scripture above. I've never heard any authentic Spirit-led Pentecostal/charismatic say anything else than that interpretation of that verse--I Cor 14:32. Some have noted that it's talking about the spirit of the prophet vs Holy Spirit. nevertheless, the net effect is the same. The person speaking is held accountable for what comes out of his mouth and for the timing and it being in order etc.
I don't know of any written Pentecostal work taking a lot of pages to talk about that. It's just standard understanding in such circles. It's taught incidentally more than as worth a whole sermon.
There have been grandstanding efforts on the part of this or that dear sister or brother who had a pride problem or an insecurity attention seeking problem or some such and sooner or later someone, hopefully, would cite the verse and take the person aside and tell them to stop monopolizing the meeting--to go on and on with The Lord all they wanted in their prayer closet but not in the meeting. Sometimes, if the person didn't get it--they'd be shut down publically in the service and others queried as to whether they had anything from the Lord to offer then.
Likewise for #14. Does this claim have any Biblical reference or is this your personal anecdotal understanding.
14. ... Holy Spirit is a gentleman. When we say we give up control, it’s a very relative thing. Virtually never will Holy Spirit take unfettered control ...The practical result may be AS THOUGH HE DID because no such individual person would DARE TO HINDER Holy Spirit’s flow—... However, the individual is still a sovereign individual in terms of his own body and faculties.
That flows from verse 32 as well.
There have been times when dear brother or sister has said or done whatever and claimed they just couldn't help themselves they were so 'overwhelmed' by their Holy Spirit experience etc. Sooner or later some wiser, more experienced, more mature and more Biblical Bro or Sister would say--uhhhhhhhhhh, no. That's not right. You were in control and you were responsible for what you said and what you did. THAT'S SCRIPTURE. Now adjust your thinking and your behavior accordingly.
The rest of that commentary was my perceptions, discernments and experience from over my 63 years . . .
There HAVE BEEN TIMES, when the torrent of Holy Spirit through me was like a firehose. I was aware that I COULD have stopped it. There was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I WANTED TO AND NO WAY I'D CONSCIOUSLY DO ANYTHING TO STOP IT AS LONG AS THERE WAS THE LEAST BIT OF TRUE HOLY SPIRIT LEADING and flowing in it. That was the way it was 2-3 weeks ago when I suddenly broke into such a torrent of loud tongues in a language I'd not ever used before.
I suppose someone could have complained about my loudness loud enough for all to hear without any interpretation. However, it was strictly in prayer over and for Pastor. She's well able to interpret herself. So, in terms of her, there was no issue. And it was not MEANT per se for others to hear. So there was no complaint on that score. Everyone knew that.
There have been periods in my life where I felt urgings and presses in my spirit to pray in tongues for someone or give someone a 'word' from The Lord in English. Usually I'll have the first few words or sounds and nothing else comes until I express those, then the torrent or gentle flow or something in between begins to flow.
The last 8-10 years has been enough of a long dark night of the soul for me spiritually and otherwise, I've just pulled way back and been mostly withdrawn and silent. I'd occasionally, very occasionally have something and might offer it--usually to affirming acclaim of the recipient. But I haven't been all that confidently energized to flow boldly IN THE SPIRIT these years. It seems like The Lord may be bringing me up out of that desert time.
I've probably been bolder and actually have felt more urgings of Holy Spirit in behalf of this Pastor. Thankfully, Pastor has persistently insisted that I've been right on and very accurate in what I said.
In years past, when counseling Christians, particularly, I would sometimes feel a bit stuck or an urging of Holy Spirit to seek Him for input to the clients. After checking if that was OK with them, I'd usually pray just under my breath quietly in tongues until I had some clarity of what to say in English. Virtually always, what came was spot on and helped break through some road blocks in the counseling.
All of that to describe instances when what I tried to articulate in #14 was the case. Holy Spirit does not strong-arm anyone. Yeah, there are times when folks get zapped and even zotted and I suppose that could be called a strong-arm manifestation of Holy Spirit. But that's a different breed of phenomenon than what I'm talkinga bout.
I'm talking about Holy Spirit's dance, collaboration with one of God's kids toward benefits for that individual or others or The Kingdom generally. Holy Spirit woos folks, invites, dances with. He just doesn't strong arm. Not His nature.
Certainly when the intensity of HIS FLOWING WITHIN AND OUT FROM a person is particularly STRONGLY FIERCELY, BRAZENLY SUPERNATURAL TO THE MAX, it can SEEM IRRESISTABLY INTENSE--but that's just a sensation. It's not a legal/spiritual fact.
Sometimes folks will word that SENSATION inaccurately implying or stating plainly that they were out of control and Holy Spirit was in 100% control. That's just not Biblically accurate. And I've never found it to be experientially accurate.
There is the Scripture about NOT QUENCHING THE HOLY SPIRIT. And, there have certainly been times when folks were reluctant to speak or obey or boldly speak forth etc. and Holy Spirit has quietly withdrawn what had been a deepening heavy Presence of God in the room. That's dreadfully sad. Sometimes it has happened because man chose to go on with the SCHEDULE of the service instead of submitting to what Holy Spirit wanted to do--that's particularly sad in congregations where the leadership advertises that they are always submitted totally in every service to only what Holy Spirit wants to do. Doesn't tend to work out that way very often.
Finally, all of these claims indicate that the individual must initiate the language. I guess I'm confused as to the meaning of why speaking in unintelligible sounds corresponds to actions taken by the Holy Spirit that's presented to the Father. Why do these unintelligible sounds bring the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit subject to take action when he hears these sounds? Why does God prefer that his children speak in unintelligible sounds over and on top of intelligible sounds?
I wouldn't say, per se, that the glossalalia BRINGS Holy Spirit like a dog whistle. NOT AT ALL. Holy Spirit is resident within, to begin with. The boldness to step out in faith with overt obvious willingness to be used of Holy Spirit in such a way--comes by His inner prompting, to begin with.
If one steps out similarly without a clear inner prompting, Holy Spirit may or may not rise up in an overtly tangible way. Nevertheless, per what The Lord told me, I still have a confidence that Holy Spirit is adding His Holy Spirit perfect prayer meaning to the sounds. That's where my faith and confidence IN HIS DOING SO comes in.
And, over the decades, I've seen the fruit of having that kind of faith that Holy Spirit is ascribing/associating/attaching His meaning to those prayed sounds. The results of such prayers have been quite persistently impactful in many situations, including such as counseling mentioned above. Sometimes, they have helped stop ravingly demonized persons from disrupting meetings. I'd automatically begin praying in tongues at such a beginning disturbance and then quickly would have English words to command in Christ's Name and the demonized person would shut up and/or leave.
Why does God prefer that his children speak in unintelligible sounds over and on top of intelligible sounds?
I think that I Cor 14 makes clear that in a meeting, God prefers intelligible sounds or interpreted tongues ONLY.
However, in one's prayers, I believe that the humility that it fosters and the kind of setting aside of this intellectualizing and over-thinking and mental masturbation manipulating God tendency so many have . . . in their prayers . . . it kind of slices through all that.
I think the closest I can get to describing what seems to mostly be going on . . . there have been times in my life when I absolutey ran out of things to pray in English. Yet, there was such anguish of spirit, such despair, such intensity of groaning in travail, angst, . . . despair . . . that all I could do was literally groan in prayer or mutter some sounds in tongues. There was absolutely no English words left to utter that made any further sense or had any further impact. Maybe you've never reached that point of despair.
Does that mean that praying in tongues always needs involve such despair--NOT AT ALL.
Sung prayers spontaneously in tongues orchestrated by Holy Spirit with different miraculously interwoven melodies [by Holy Spirit's orchestration/arrangement] over a large room meeting is absolutely angelic, Heavenly, glorious, miraculous in a grand way. Most joyous, celebratory yet in a reverential awe sort of way.
It's just that when one has been to such a level of despair where literal groans and/or feeble utterances in tongues were the only prayers one could manage--the blessed relief that brought is a good hint or analogy for why praying in tongues at other times is such a blessed option. One's inner yearnings that one's spirit and Holy Spirit can collaborate on in a perfect prayer--is life saving.
Some folks teach that praying in tongues is encrypted--that satan can't evesdrop. I suspect that's true but Scripture doesn't say so, that I recall.
To me, just the humility aspect alone is sufficient reason for God to encourage it.
I'm not meaning to be contentious here but as I read your claims I sense a form of paganism inherent which comes in the form of man being able to bring God down from heaven by speaking in a way that controls God's actions. To me it sounds like a different form of what Romanists claim. Romanists claim that by speaking a certain liturgy, i.e. ex opere operato, that God is subject to a certain action. So isn't Pentecostals speaking in tongues just a different form of Romanists sacramental theology?
NOT AT ALL. God is NOT a vending machine--whether one's quarters are tongues or ritual. And believe me, there are Pentecostals who get into rituals about and with tongues. God seems to turn down the volume and attend to other things, then.
Holy Spirit is totally unique. He will occasionally do things the same way several times in a row. But quickly, He seems to sense that a ritual has evolved and He'll stop complying in such a predictable fashion.
I could probably tease out a better explanation about all that but I'm tired and this is long enough.Feel free to ask further questions.
this guy I was telling you about was such a loser, he wouldn’t even give a dog a drink of water on a hot day, yet he bragged about his blackouts, “slain in the spirit”
I’ll refer you to my THREAD re CAPS lock etc.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2347476/posts
1 Corinthians 14:39 - "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."
I doubt there’s much I or anyone else can say to most folks looking at such EXPERIENCES
from the OUTSIDE.
The Sherill’s classic: THEY SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES
and Charles and Francis Hunter’s
CLASSIC: TWO SIDES OF A COIN discusses probably the best I’ve read . . . both sides and their transition from one side to the other after Holy Spirit ‘apprehended’ them.
WHY SHOULD *I* SPEAK IN TONGUES?
might also be enlightening.
I think it’s *easyism*. the preachers are too damned lazy to preach, and the hearers too damned lazy to learn
Personally, I have known a few who claimed to be totally zonked out in terms of what was going on around them while they were in that state.
Yet, they evidenced spiritual blessing and growth from it.
One interpretation was that God needed to do some spiritual surgery that He saw fit to do best with them “under anesthetic.”
Most shrinks that I know would consider introverted to be a way of life that included a significant degree of significantly above average shyness.
Certainly my intro text treats it that way.
Needing down time—extroverts can need quiet down time.
EXCELLENT POINTS. THANKS FOR THIS:
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is real. It happened to me years ago. I was seeking it; I still don’t understand it. Five words in the unknown tongue were just like - dropped - into my consciousness. I spoke them out, and then it came like a torrent. I suppose I don’t pray often enough in an unknown tongue, it’s been beaten down so bad by the modern church and its supposed sophistication. But, Lord knows, we sure do need all the uplifting and edification we can get in this day and age if it was ever needed. - Lord also knows we don’t have the faith and teaching in this era that we need as Christians. - However, tongues can become little more than “sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal”. There is so much more than just tongues, and the fruit of the Spirit is what I seek to be produced in me. Love, God Himself.
Disingenuous is too weak a word.
It’s spiritually dangerous . . . to ascribe to Holy Spirit things of satan . . . it approaches if it’s not over the line of blasphemy against Holy Spirit.
Well put.
Very well put.
One often, typically earnestly travails in prayer toward wanting all God has for them . . . and, as Billy Graham has said—we all leak and need a daily refilling of Holy Spirit . . . Holy Spirit is not particularly interested in a greater fullness in a life where stubbornness, selfishness, pride, !!!control!!!! freaque stuff etc. etc. are more in control of the individual than the better parts of the individual is.
Holy Spirit wants a vessel wholly dedicated to The Lord Jesus without selfishness etc. as much as is within the person’s choices to choose at that point. It’s not that HS expects folks to be perfect . . . but their heart attitudes need to be right to mostly right. Lots of the above stuff can get much in the way and Holy Spirit will just wait until such things are more taken care of in repentance, confession, contrition, turning the right way from them.
LOL.
See my above long post.
Holy Spirit is exceedingly sovereign. NO ONE manipulates Him.
I love Anne Herring’s spirit and music.
She lives & worships at a Charismatic church in Durango, as I understand it.
While it is good to “test the spirits” and “prove all things” it is not good to go too far so that you reject what really is the Holy Spirit...
ABSOLUTELY.
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