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To: annalex; MarkBsnr
Mark: we understand that the NT Scripture is massaged by the Church and harmonized during the first six centuries

Alex: So then that finished product is inerrant...

By fiat? There is no objective evidence of that. It's a demand placed on the faithful by the Church since Trent.

Its inerrancy is, however, "as written" by that collective process, primarily by Sts Matthew, Mark, etc. but possibly by the clarifying and editorial work done in later centuries, over a body of manuscripts available at the time and now lost.

The only thing that was lost was the original understanding of things in Judaism, and their deliberate and forced mutation into something unrecognizable. Without radically changing the meaning of words, misquoting (even rewriting) the Old Testament, etc., Christianity would have no leg to stand on.

When I was originally faced with this prospect, I was appalled, even angry. But evidence is too compelling which is why it is so well filtered by the Church. When was the last time you had a rabbi give a sermon on how the Jews see the Passover Lamb and what the Christians innovated from it? Jews are considered perfidious (unbelieving) "apostates" and all their views are heretical (kettle calling the pot black) and labeled.

One way the Church obtained its 'inerrancy," Alex, is by paraphrasing what her adversaries were saying, but never actually showing what they had to say, be it Arius or Pelagius. It started with the Gospels and never stopped. All the whitings of the heretics were destroyed or should have been. Thankfully, not all were destroyed, so we can dispel the myth of "one" church, and one catholic faith from the get go. Unfortunately.

7,138 posted on 01/24/2011 11:46:37 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit...give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- Mithral prayer)
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To: kosta50
The only thing that was lost was the original understanding of things in Judaism, and their deliberate and forced mutation into something unrecognizable. Without radically changing the meaning of words, misquoting (even rewriting) the Old Testament, etc., Christianity would have no leg to stand on.

Remember that during the second and third centuries, the OT was very much neglected and the concentration of the Church was on the message of Christianity, not its divergence from Judaism.

When I was originally faced with this prospect, I was appalled, even angry. But evidence is too compelling which is why it is so well filtered by the Church. When was the last time you had a rabbi give a sermon on how the Jews see the Passover Lamb and what the Christians innovated from it? Jews are considered perfidious (unbelieving) "apostates" and all their views are heretical (kettle calling the pot black) and labeled.

Christianity is not Judaism, which was made clear in the Gospels and even clearer in Acts and the epistles. Why were you angry? Was the Torah rewritten? The rest of the Tanakh? What changes were made in the translation of the Septuagint - inadvertently and deliberately? We have some evidence, as we have evidence of the NT massaging.

I believe that the changes were required because of the inability of man to properly understand God, so we view Him, as we do everything else - through our anthropomorphic and current societal filters. I have no proof - but I do believe that this is what happened, just as I believe that the bishops converged in their meeting room in Nicea were led by the Holy Spirit to make the decisions that they made. Same as the cardinals in the Vatican when they are shoveled into the Sistine Chapel and told to stay put until a new bishop is chosen.

I have no proof except for the longevity of the practice and the fact that it makes sense to me on an experiential basis, as well as a theological one.

7,142 posted on 01/26/2011 5:06:16 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr
Annalex: [The Scripture as produced by the Church] is inerrant

Kosta: There is no objective evidence of that. It's a demand placed on the faithful by the Church since Trent

Well, by faith. It is a fundamental element of Christian faith, and it is not so just because of Trent. It is not by fiat because Trent or no Trent, people are free to leave the Church.

The only thing that was lost was the original understanding of things in Judaism, and their deliberate and forced mutation into something unrecognizable. Without radically changing the meaning of words, misquoting (even rewriting) the Old Testament, etc., Christianity would have no leg to stand on.

Or rather, what the Jews saw darkly the Christians see clearly. Obviously, since the Jewish vision deteriorated further after the loss of the Temple, consulting them today is altogether pointless. I agree, however, that Christianity is a transformation (properly, it is the fulfillment) of Judaism.

myth of "one" church

The Church is of course one as there is but one Christ. Heresies are multiple: they are the "denominations" of today, and so were the ancient heresies.

7,195 posted on 02/24/2011 5:31:48 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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