Posted on 09/07/2010 2:10:43 AM PDT by markomalley
I see the Da Vinci Code as “camp” Catholic.
The passage simply says that she was suffering. It says nothing about any curse applied to her personally. Humans suffer at childbirth and she suffered because she is human.
It doesn't. The scripture always teaches that we are saved by faith and works. If you look through the usual Protestant prooftexts for faith alone, they are all false. There are passages that teach that we are saved by works (e.g. Romans 2:6-10 or Matthew 25:31-46) and there are passages that teach that we are saved by faith. There are also passages that teach that we are not saved by certain kind of works. For example, we are not saved by works of the law, or works done for a temporal reward. However, nowhere does the scripture say that we are saved by faith alone. This is the clearest teaching on how we are saved:
[4] But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) [6] And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. [7] That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph 2)
We are saved by grace alone (vv 6-8), we cannot generate grace ourselves (v 8 and 9), we are saved through faith (v 8), we are to do good works that God commanded us to do (v 10). This passage teaches faith + works. It is often cited by the Protestants as a prooftext of "faith alone" but invariably, verse 10 is omitted, verse 9 is made to mean that we are not saved by ANY works where the scripture clearly distinguishes the works of self-glorification from "good works".
The notion of salvation through faith alone is a counterscriptural Protestant fantasy.
The mistake here is to think that the Church teaches that death and labor pain are punishment for individual sin, sort of like Hell is punishment for individual sin. Death and labor pain are consequences of the sin of Adam, but not of our actual sins.
Moreover the Church teaches that suffering advances our salvation and salvation of others; far from being a punishment, it is a blessing:
the sufferings of Christ abound in us (2 Cor. 1:5)[I, St. Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church (Col. 1:24).
If they were part of ONE church, it would have been most appropriate to address it to the Pope.
As for the quote from St. Paul, you can clearly tell that he was referring to Judaizers.
Whoever Paul was referring to, he was giving instructions to the church. There are many things that gives the impressions of being "religious" but they serve no benefit.
In fact, if anything, the context of the overall passage actually informs me that we should worship as the heavenly worship goes. After all, as St Paul says in the verse following: Therefore if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above...
The context has nothing to do with burning incense or candles. Rather we are instructed to be renewed in our minds and purify our flesh:
I see burning incense or candles nothing more then what Paul states, "an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism". They do nothing in putting off the old nature and putting on the new. They are outward signs of piety, not inward signs of renewal.
If people want to burn candles for the dead-go ahead. It is nothing but a corrupt manmade work that does nothing to please God.
Unless you believe what the Bible plainly teaches. I noticed you completely ignored verse 9 in your "exegesis" ... the one that says "not of works."
I dont think we can continue productively.
Swing your partner round and round ... toss her in a corner upsidedown.
You are seriously dancing around the issue. If Mary was sinless, she wouldnt have been cursed in childbirth. To say she was suffering in some kind of mystical or esoteric way strains any resemblance of cogent hermeneutic.
Many Catholics are unaware of how much of the Bible is in the Mass.
When I take them to the sanctuary and show them the sacramentary )the book the priest uses) they are totally amazed.
This is an awesome article. Thank you for posting it.
Additionally I don’t believe many Protestants know how much of the Bible is in the Mass.
But that was the one thing that brought Scott Hahn to the Catholic Faith. ......... the amount of Biblical text in the Mass. Especially the phrase “Lamb of God.”
The portrayal of the woman in Revelation can be symbolic of three images.
First, yes, the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Secondly, Israel.
Third, The mother of the Body of Christ — the Church.
In the second two explanations, serious pain is present.
You know better than to say they never had a Mass.
What does Paul talk about? Getting together in homes to celebrate the Lord’s Word and the Eucharist. He doesn’t use those exact words, but it’s there. Please read it again.
The seven churches in Revelation are seven communities.
Paul went from community to community founding churches....I know you are aware of that.
As Mary was dying, and she lived a good number of years after the death of her son, all the apostles were transported to her bedside.
This isn’t in Scripture but is recorded by the Early Church Fathers.
Look up the Dormition of Mary — I can give you links if you want them. LOL!
**The “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” is not the Roman Catholic Church**
You’ve got this backwards.
First the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
then the Roman rite and twenty-one other rites.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
From my post 43:
verse 9 is made to mean that we are not saved by ANY works where the scripture clearly distinguishes the works of self-glorification from "good works".
Also
There are also passages that teach that we are not saved by certain kind of works. For example, we are not saved by works of the law, or works done for a temporal reward.
So where DOES the scripture, in contradiction to itself but in accordance with the Protestant myths, teach that we are saved by faih alone? We already know it teaches that we are not.
Please do provide a link ... I would like to read that story. Though I dont venerate Mary as a typical Catholic, I am genuinely interested in extra-Biblical history of the NT.
Who said she was "cursed"? Your reference is to this:
[14] And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. [15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she [correct tranlation is "he"] shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.[16] To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee. [17] And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. [18] Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. [20] And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living.
(Gen 3)
Note a couple of things. Mankind or even Adam and Eve are not cursed. The Serpent is cursed, and the earth which Adam toils is cursed. Secondly, alongside the prophecy of suffering there is a mini-gospel in verse 15: the seed of the woman, that is the Christ born of Mary, will defeat the Serpent. So much rather than being cursed, Mary is blessed in Genesis 3.
The Catholic teaching of Original sin is explained by St. Paul in this passage:
[12] Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. [13] For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. [14] But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. [15] But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died; much more the grace of God, and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.(Romans 5)
Observe that original sin is not the same as actual sin that a person may or may not commit. Verse 14 does not refer to labor pain but to death as a figure of all suffering, and explains that they come even to those who did not commit an actual sin.
To say she was suffering in some kind of mystical or esoteric way strains any resemblance of cogent hermeneutic
It is one possible explanation, that the exagerrated birth pangs in Rev. 12 are a reference to what St. Paul once described as groans in the expectation of the salvation: "we also, who are in this tabernacle, do groan, being burthened; because we would not be unclothed, but clothed upon, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life" (2 Corinthians 5:4). It is, after all, a very poetic book. There is nothing uncogent about making notice of that. However, -- I already emntioned it to you but it does not seem to register: Mary certainly suffered in a tangible way. Her suffering was prophesied by Holy Simeon in Luke 2:35; it is referred to directly in Luke 2:48 and it can be surmised that Our Lady surrefered great anguish at the foot of the Cross. Suffering, either mental or physical, is not a consequence of personal sin. As I mentioned earlier to a Catholic Christian suffering is a blessing which brings about our sanctity. Most saints are martyrs; they suffered, and not for their sins but for the sins of others. There is no contradiction whatsoever in Mary suffering and being sinless. The only contradiction is between the Holy Scripture and the Protestant heresy of "total depravity of man".
Fabulous piece!
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