Posted on 01/11/2010 3:54:09 PM PST by Colofornian
He says while the campaign does question Christian doctrine, it is not meant to attack Christians.
Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Catholics, Wesleyans, PRESBYTERIANs, Pentacostals, Anglican, Orthodox - all tend to see the campaign differently.
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Very true. The LDS whine when someone confronts them with their doctrine yet they send out 50k+ missionaries every year to tell Christians that they are ‘apostates’.
Michael, see, here is the matter unorganized.
We will organize it into a world like unto the worlds that we have heretofore formed.
We will call our labors the First Day and return and report.
Michael, see, here is the matter unorganized.
We will organize it into a world like unto the worlds that we have heretofore formed.
We will call our labors the First Day and return and report.
There are two main interpretations of the LDS “word of wisdom”. [me]
Why does the PLAIN ENGLISH have to be INTERPRETTED?? [elsie]
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Not to mention the LDS IGNORE the part about abstaining from meat except in winter and times of famine.
OR that wine is permissible if they make it themselves.
the Word of Wisdom is just another one of JS’s so-called prophecies that they pick and choose from. Like the ETERNAL covenant of polygamy.
LOL.
affirmation.org
Cut and Paste Queens strike again!
Yup!
Proudly posting what MORMONs do not wish to see!
Why is it that MORMONism history seems to REALLY upset the present day MORMONs?
My first Q, Urroner is, how do you know that? You see, my problem with many posters, and you're only the latest of a series of such posters, is that some seem to assume they know the inner motivations of people.
Even here, unlike the other posters, where you're "kind of" rhetorically (w/ a point of trying to point out some alleged inconsistency) framing it re: putting the best "technical" spin on Christians -- assuming a motivation of love.
So my Q is Urroner, how can you know ANYBODY's internal motivations unless they tell you? For some, as you describe, yes it is love. For others, I'm sure it's not. But I don't know. How are we to parse out who fits where? 1 Sam. 16:7 says that man looks at the outer part of a fellow man; but ONLY God sees the heart.
So, no, Urroner, I try to avoid judging the inner man -- either for better or worse. 'Cause I don't know. And therefore, no, I don't try to defend every phrase or tone or attitude made by a Christian or self-proclaimed Christian. (I don't even try to defend all of my own tones or attitudes because I know I mess up there at times).
My second Q is why would you assume we would (defend such a person)?
As far as "inflammatory" language, you know tootin' well that's a relative consideration. You look at some people sideways and they feel slighted. I got a second-hand story just this week about a woman at a restaurant who was overlooked for 45 seconds without being greeted and blew her top. What may inflame a thinner skinned person may not somebody else who's more patient.
And besides, becoming "inflamed" could actually positively turn some folks around. Analogy: A med specialist could do an endometrial ablation, which involves uterine lining removal by burning it away. The goal there isn't harm, but health; therapy, not quackery.
When Mormons criticize “true” Christians’ interpretation of the Bible, then those insufferable Morons...
Let me stop you right there. This is a "free expression" Web site. We live in a "free republic." If you or other Mormons want to critique away, have at it. It makes for some interesting dialogue versus so many of the dozens of other Mormons who have slinked away from FR.
I can't speak for other FR posters, but for me it's not simply this critique that bothers me. What bothers me is that instead of saying this critique originates in their own mind, heart, or tongue, they claim my Creator has this opinion of our interpretations. And what's worse, is they claim my Creator has this opinion of ALL of our important interpretations.
According to the First Vision of Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith - History, v. 19 -- there isn't one single Christian sect creed that the Mormon god honors amongs Christians. He said ALL of them (not most) were an "abomination" to him. "Abomination" literally means "putrid."
Now have I ever said 100% of Mormon creeds are an "abomination" to the God of the Bible? (No) We could actually spend some time talking about common-ground creeds...and I'd love it if genuine Mormons would simply read the Apostles Creed and tell me what's lacking there. I've tossed out that challenge dozens of times to Lds & only one Mormon ever took me up on it. Why? I'm not sure...though it leaves the impression that they can't find anything wrong with it...BTW...if a Mormon reads it, my caveat is they need to understand that when it was written, "catholic" meant only "universal" -- not the Roman Catholic church.
Mormons are attacking the Bible and have lost the love of God...
Never said that...who has? Urroner, you give a lot of generic crits of Christians on dozens of posts in the past two months without usually citing specific ones chapter & verse. That's a problem. May I suggest you bring that to a halt? It's stereotyping. It's generalization. From now on, if you do that, you at least better be ready to back it up with specific quotes/citations of specific people.
In ANY relationship, if you are going to critique someone or a group of people, we have got to be SPECIFIC. They don't know what to correct if we don't tell them specifics. And if we can't pinpoint who the individual problem is within a larger group, then how can they address it?
So, no, Mormons have NEVER lost the love of God. He is is the God of the 1, not the God of the 99, for the Bible tells us THAT is the heart of a true shepherd. Mormons are of inestimable worth; they were made in the image of God. And Jesus Christ died for them just like He did me. (As the old saying goes, the ground is level at the foot of the cross).
...and they deserve to suffer severe and eternal flagellation...
Well, I actually have to agree with this assessment...though why would that surprise anybody? This statement isn't limited to Mormons. It applies to Presbyterians, Evangelicals, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Charismatics, Baptists, Mainline Protestants, Orthodox, and atheists etc. We ALL deserve to suffer eternal punishment even beyond how you've described it. Why? Because our sins don't usually stop with us. They effect others, some of whom become hellbound either by our own influence or withheld influence. That is why hell is eternal.
Urroner, if you were responsible for egging on somebody to murder someone else, then tell me how you could ever do "jail time" enough to compensate for that? (That's the problem with official LDS "short-term" doctrinal version of hell).
The love of God is with those “true” Christians and hostility in the name of Christ is not only permitted, but greatly encouraged.
I challenge you Urroner to read John 8. Read Matthew 23. Read Luke 20. Some of Luke 10. Beginning of Luke 14. Some of Luke 18. Revelation 2. Revelation 3. Jesus would speak harshest to religionists -- and that was ALSO true of Christians in Christian churches (see Rev. 2; see Rev. 3).
I'm sure if you only read those chapters, you'd think that Jesus was "hostile" to the teachers of the Law, the Pharisees, and Christians in some of those 7 churches in Revelation. But tough love isn't always easy; and if we don't see our own sin, then Jesus says He didn't come for us. He told us all He came for those are sick, NOT those who have no need for a physician. And sometimes physicians have to give the bad news (what needs to go into remission) before they give the good news (the cure).
...is it ironic, that when the “true” Christians do X, it’s for the love they have for everybody, but when Mormons do X, they are evil and must be stopped at all costs.
Again, let's take a "worst-case" scenario where a "Christian" was hostile in tone, attitude, and content toward a Mormon. What are we to conclude of that? Well, he's giving a mere opinion. That opinion may be wrong or right; and the attitude & tone may stink up a storm; but it still comes down to an opinion expressed in a poor manner.
But let's assume a Mormon who has the absolute BEST manners, best attitude, best tone, and then he cites "scripture" and says, "Yea, oh, yea, this is God's opinion of you spoken in the canonized word throught the 'prophet' Joseph Smith -- You, oh, Christian are ALL 'corrupt professors' saith the 14 or 15 yo Joseph Smith as spoken from the unnamed Mormon personage appearing unto him...thee are 100% wrong creedally and NONE of thy churches are worth joining, and thee lack any true power...oh, and BTW, thine are ALL apostates, too."
You know what, Urroner? I'd rather have...
...a Christian condemn me to hell in word, tone, and attitude than...
...a Mormon who is exemplary in tone, attitude & manner -- yet labels me with this huge kind, nice, smiley-face grin to be some...
...corrupt,
...powerless,
...abominable apostate heart-drifter...
...who teaches only human precepts...
...and is ALL wrong...
...all while conveying that this is God's exact assessment of me & every other Christian, Christian church, Orthodox church, Catholic church, etc!!!
AND EVERY TITHING MORMON HAS ENGAGED IN THIS LABELING BECAUSE THEY HAVE PAID FOR HUNDREDS OF TRANSLATIONS OF THIS 'SCRIPTURE' AND CURRICULA AND ENSIGN MAG ARTICLES AND MISSIONARY LESSON PLANS AND OFTEN MISSIONARIES THEMSELVES!!!!
So my final Q is: When are Mormons going to take responsibility for what their $ has published worldwide -- by priting press, by Web site, by missionary vocal chord?
You see, Urroner, there's no 2nd book of Revelation where Christians point to such a verse and say, "See, Mr. Mormon sectarian, this is God's inspired, canonized opinion of you as it applies ONLY to Mormons."
Yet YOU or any other Mormon CANNOT CLAIM THE SAME APOLOGETICAL DEFENSE because your Mormon spiritual ancestors decided to forever enshrine those phrases as Mormon "scripture" and true-believing Mormons are stuck with them, whether they like them or not. It's part of their very identity because they were written as part of the "First Vision" -- which is the very foundation of the Mormon Church!
(BTW, say "Hi" to Sevenbak for me)
“We will return and report”.
LOL. Lamest movie ever made, no wonder so many fall asleep during it.
Cut and Paste Queens strike again!
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Cutting and pasting saves time.
What are the LDS so afraid of?
Or disavow it...
Just a thought...
If James 2-like works of service & lived-out "worthiness" & "obedience to the gospel" is so glorious to be part of the godmakers, and if all these words from Lds "prophets" and apostles are from divinely led leaders, well, we'd expect almost "pride" from Mormons when their leaders' past public actions & words are quoted. They should be thanking you, Els!
What an amazing question really:
The answers are inescapable...
The truth has become so readily available on the internet, educated LDS youth have to downplay their history and elders. The modern LDS church works hard to condition and train it's members to shun the actual history of the Church. Those who investigate are automatically called "apostates."
There is a marked deemphasis in the public presentations of church elders such as Joseph Smith, which is not surprising when you consider that his doctrines included things like the outrageous belief that dark skin is a curse from God.
I believe that any thinking person can see what is going on amongst LDS today, i.e., they are leaving their roots in an attempt to appear more like mainstream Christianity.
I always forget to stream it on Tues. So I just wait a week or so and download it.
I have a lot of respect for Shawn, he is doing great things and with good results. This year is all Christian doctrine rather than LDS, so it should be really good.
His book “Born Again Mormon” is worth a read.
Actually, he’s doing an alphabetical ‘comparative’ study, contrasting Christianity to LDS. First ‘episode’ was Adam and Eve. Tonight was Angels. Next Tuesday will be Apostasy, IIRC. He does a splendid job of reading the Bible passages and giving the numerous concordance connections, then contrasting to what LDS teach/taught on the subject. He made one minor error this evening ... Abram was not the first scene in the Bible with an Angel ‘ministering’. He might want to read whom guards the way to the Tree of Life in the now closed Garden, etc.
Ah, so that is how he is going to do it. I had heard him mention that he was focusing on Christian doctrine, but a comparison like that is going to be valuable.
Feel free to email him with comments/corrections. He is pretty good about it. :)
Remember “John” from O’Fallon, IL? He reminded me of a couple of LDS freepers.
I find the whole study of Angels and more specifically hinted at dimensional vagaries found in the Bible to be fascinating. I'm writing a little book about it in fact. One comment Shawn made reagrding an appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament, calling the episode a 'pre-incarnate' appearance, hints at temporal vagaries that would not require a 'pre-incarnate' body since God can take His body back and forward to any location in dimension time. But that's enough of my ramblings.
you have freepmail.
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