Posted on 11/17/2009 9:40:21 AM PST by NYer
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.- Vatican analyst Andrea Tornielli reported this week that the first step toward the beatification of John Paul II has already been completed. He explained that officials at the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints have given the green light for the proclamation of the late Pope's heroic virtue.
Tornielli added that only the signature of Pope Benedict XVI is needed for the proclamation to become official, noting that it “could come during Christmas, when the prefect for the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints, Archbishop Angelo Amato, will include it in cardinals’ agenda.” Once the decree is signed, he said, Pope Wojtyla will be given the title of “venerable.”
“Once the decree is officially promulgated,” Tornielli continued, a miracle will then need to be attributed to the intercession of John Paul II.
One case, the curing of a French nun from Parkinson's Disease, could be the miracle recognized by the Congregation.
“The case will first be analyzed by doctors with the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints, later by theologians and finally by the cardinals. Only then, after a final and definitive confirmation by Benedict XVI, could Pope Wojtyla be beatified,” Tornielli explained.
Could you provide a link to your post?
I would like to see what the Catholic Encyclopedia used as a source for this.
Pope Gregory XVI authorized liturgical veneration for St. Philomena. On 14 February 1961, the Holy See ordered that the name of Saint Philomena be removed from all the liturgical calendars that mentioned her.
Apparently the Vatican doesn’t read the Catholic Encyclopedia.
“There is a time for everything under the sun”-—
Pope John Paul II had his calling and his work from God and Pope Benedict has his calling and his work from God.
All is in God’s hands—thankfully in His hands and not ours.
We will all be so surprised about many things when “all that is hidden will be revealed”.
What is needed here is faith—faith that God is always with his Church, in good times and in bad times.
God Himself, being All-knowing, knows when is the right time for weeding out and He looks after it.
Here is the link. I only excerpted briefly:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm
“Pope Gregory XVI authorized liturgical veneration for St. Philomena. On 14 February 1961, the Holy See ordered that the name of Saint Philomena be removed from all the liturgical calendars that mentioned her.”
Removing someone from the calendar doesn't make someone an ex-saint.
As well, in the case of St. Philomena, I don't believe that she was ever actually canonized. Though called a saint, it appears that her cultus was local and permitted, not universal and commanded. Here is wiki:
“On 13 January 1837, in the aftermath of the cure of Venerable Pauline Jaricot, Pope Gregory XVI authorized liturgical celebration of Philomena on 11 August[8][10] or, according to another source, originally on 9 September,[7] first in the Diocese of Nola (to which Mugnano del Cardinale belongs), and soon in several other dioceses in Italy.
“This permission that Pope Gregory XVI gave on 13 January 1837 for public celebration of Philomena in some limited places, not throughout the Church, has been interpreted as ‘raising Saint Philomena to the altars of the universal Church’, a liturgical act proper only to a canonized saint.[13][not in citation given] The name of this Philomena was never included in the Roman Martyrology, the official list of saints recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and in which the saints are included immediately upon canonization.”
Thus, it appears that “St.” Philomena was never formally canonized.
sitetest
>>the official list of saints recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and in which the saints are included immediately upon canonization.”<<
That is from your own quote.
What makes a saint (someone in heaven) different from a Cannonized Saint is the veneration. New Advent is a wonderful resource who’s reference is back to itself.
Here is what the CCC says about saints.
828 By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.303 “The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church’s history.”304 Indeed, “holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal.”305
There is nothing here that states one MUST venerate a Saint.
Believe that person is in heaven i.e. saint, is what we are called to do.
To venerate a saint is a personal choice.
I offer to you this ancient prayer—I’m not sure of its origin but will find out as soon as I can
“At the beginning of Creation the Divine Spirit hovered over the chaotic waters to imprint order, beauty and life in them. He descended again upon the Virginity of Mary to make her fruitful and to incarnate the Word. And He descended again on the Holy Church in its pastors, who are the Apostles, to give them the Divine Fecundity. They were with the Most Holy Virgin Mary and received Him from her. After his descent, from being weak they became intrepid; from rough and ignorant they became light of the world; from cold they became flames of love. The Holy Spirit did not make human promotion with them, but divine. Let us supplicate Him to descend again upon the Pope, upon the Pastors and Priests, to dissipate and burn all that which is not his, and to fill them with Light, Divine Love, and of Zeal for His Divine Will.”
No day should pass that we don’t pray for our present Pontiff, our present Bishop and our local priests.
You are responding to post 39 in which I asked this...
“So what did he do to fight all of that?”
Why is it that you would reply with a prayer?
I go with the lead of St. Catherine of Sienna and Mother Angelica. I will speak out on that which I feel is not correct, and humbly obey if the Vatican rules otherwise.
Mother Angelica didn’t like Altar Girls. When the Vatican allowed them, she said that she would no longer speak about it.
If JPII is cannonized, I will no longer speak about it.
You asked for the source of my first quote - it was Catholic Encyclopedia. If you don't like the source, I can't help you.
“What makes a saint (someone in heaven) different from a Cannonized Saint is the veneration.”
Well, no. Actually, the difference is the official recognition of the Church. The public veneration is what is permitted (or required) after the recognition.
In any event, it appears that if the Church formally canonizes a person, it is binding on a Catholic to acknowledge the person as a canonized saint. Obviously, you don't have to personally address petitions to the saint.
However, I imagine that if one went to Mass on that person's feast day, one would be participating in the public veneration of the saint, and if it were a holy day of obligation, one would be required to do so.
sitetest
>>You asked for the source of my first quote - it was Catholic Encyclopedia. If you don’t like the source, I can’t help you.<<
The source of the quote uses itself as a reference in the footnotes.
If this was the AP, how much validity would be put into it?
I gave you a quote from the Catechism that says nothing about a requirement to venerate a certain Saint. Do you have a quote from the CCC or the Vatican itself? Catholics here on FR won’t accept New Advent quotes without backing from the Vatican at other times, and from Catholic to Catholic, it should be that way.
Venerating the Communion of Saints is required.
>> “What makes a saint (someone in heaven) different from a Canonized Saint is the veneration.”
Well, no. Actually, the difference is the official recognition of the Church. The public veneration is what is permitted (or required) after the recognition.<<
Yes and the veneration is not allowed without the recognition. Swirl the words however one may, if there was no desire to venerate, there would be no reason to recognize.
The whole thing is a moot point until JPII is canonized. Until that time, anyone is free to speak out against it. That won’t win one a popularity contest, but anyone is allowed an opinion.
What is wrong with responding with a prayer?
BTW, I guess I could think I may speak out if I were St. Catherine of Siena or Mother Angelica.
I assume it will be OK with you if God hasn’t called me to be pointman for this moment in time.
For my part, I’m ready to retire this one now. But I will say that I sure have learned a lot about attitudes from this thread.
As with your point about Marian apparitions, so what?
The reason veneration of Marian apparitions is not obligatory is because they add nothing to the deposit of faith which is sufficient for salvation.
It has precisely nothing to do with the Church possibly getting it wrong when it gives the thumbs up to the likes of Lourdes and Fatima or any other apparition. The lack of an obligation to venerate is not an admission of possible error.
Do I believe that when JPII makes it to heaven he will be a saint? Yes.
"When"? Shouldn't it be "if"? As I've asked before, how do you know if JPII is going to heaven? You don't, do you?
They only way you know for sure is if the Church canonizes him. Which brings me back to the original question. I've asked repeatedly if you'd concur with the Church's verdict if he is canonized. You've yet to answer me.
Sorry, the Catholic Encyclopedia is good enough for me unless I have some personal knowledge to the contrary, or someone presents something authoritative contradicting it.
You haven't presented anything to contradict what it says.
As well, I've seen it said and argued elsewhere (including on FR) that canonizations are at least binding and quite possibly infallible.
“Yes and the veneration is not allowed without the recognition.”
You still got the cause and effect backwards.
“The whole thing is a moot point until JPII is canonized. Until that time, anyone is free to speak out against it.”
Perhaps you didn't mean it, but your previous posts seemed to cast doubt on whether or not you believe that someone could be canonized in error, in other words, that someone could be canonized who was not actually in Heaven at the time of canonization.
The only issue for me is that those who call themselves Catholic acknowledge that the Church's canonizations are true.
sitetest
As well, the actual content of many of the criticisms against Pope John Paul II are just so much raw sewage.
sitetest
This is what you said that is problematic:
“And honestly, as with apparitions none of us have to believe in any of them.”
Canonizations are binding expressions of the Magisterium.
One may not “disbelieve” a canonization.
sitetest
>>As I’ve asked before, how do you know if JPII is going to heaven?<<
Because I believe in the Catechism of the Catholic Church along with the reports that JPII received Last Rites. Faith tells me that he died in a state of grace.
How much Purgatory time he has to do is what is in doubt.
I don’t really care about the rockstar the man was. I care about what a shepherd he was. A poor one.
So read the thread and come to any conclusion you like, but I feel no need to put credence into the rants on an Internet site. You have the same right. And if my opinion makes someone uncomfortable, that just means it rings true.
Where is the quote from the Vatican or the CCC?
Unnecessary.
The Catholic Encyclopedia is usually a reliable source.
If you think it's in error, go do your own homework.
If you're disputing the Catholic Encyclopedia, then show me YOUR sources - as in the Catechism or some binding teaching of the Magisterium.
Something beats nothing, and right now, all I see for any assertion that canonizations are not binding expressions of the Magisterium is a whole lotta nothing.
Other than your opinion (if, indeed, that is what you're asserting).
sitetest
I gave you my source.
The CCC.
It is not on me to prove that your website coincides with what the CCC or Vatican says. It’s on you.
By your own words, it’s “usually” a reliable source but one when one can cross reference.
Where is the cross reference?
>>Something beats nothing,<<
Um, no. That’s what the non-Catholics say when stating from “Catholic” websites. I don’t buy it with them and I’m not buying this.
Two years from Sunday, Benedict XVI canonizes JPII in St. Peter's Square.
Is he wrong?
(NB: Do not address any of the following questions in your answer;
1) Is veneration of saints obligatory or voluntary?
2) Whether you would venerate JPII.
3) The amount of damage done to the Church by JPII.
4)How long JPII might spend in Purgatory.)
The question is simple and uncomplicated. It deals with whether you give unqualified assent to the Church's verdict when it pronounces sainthood.
You sure you really want to quote that as a source?
You know who signed off on the CCC, right?
The same guy you've spent the entire thread trashing.
I mean, can we really be sure that it's right?
>>Wiggle, wiggle. <<
Oh that adds to the conversation....
It’s the WHOLE thread. Everyone of my replies.
Try 46.
Now, when posts have a ring of truth, people who disagree get passionate.
I’m glad to see that there is a ring of truth in my posts.
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