Replies

DU: God loves me so much that he allowed me to come down to earth and become more like him, then knowing I was weak, allowed his only begotten son to come and give his life for me.

CF: Alright, DU, I know this kind of statement just rolls off the tip of a typical Mormon, but you do comprehend how this sounds to a non-Mormon? Let's unpack this:

Do you know how it looks to dissect someones testimony and take things out of context to do it? I'll include the original unedited version at the end of this post.

DU: "God...allowed me to come down to earth" CF: [do you realize, DU, that to a non-Mormon unfamiliar with Mormonism this sounds like you're comparing yourself to the incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ, coming down to earth to incarnate a body?]

I don't think anyone reading it in context would come to that conclusion at all, but Hey, don't let that stop you.

CF: You might answer, "So? Of course. He was my elder bro in the pre-exis...we hung out. He's a son of God from wayyy back; so am I. He came down & inhabited a body & so did I. What of it?"

Yeah, like I'd talk like that, remember, I was the guy who was offended by the living bible someone wanted to use where Jesus called his disciples "Dudes". You are very Good at saying true things in a lying way, it's not a skill I'd care to cultivate.

CF: Next phrase: ...become more like him.

CF: Well, this sounds harmless enough. (I mean what Christian is anti-godliness or anti-Christlikeness?) I'll let you answer what you meant by this -- but usually Lds when they say something to this effect, actually mean becoming like Christ to the point of becoming a future god, or New Age-like, realize the embryo-god within them.

See, even here, you say "I'll let you answer" and then you answer, you just can't resist giving your interpretation of my words, can you? It's funny, that's exactly my problem with you guys and the Book of Mormon, I invite people to read it themselves, and pray abou it to God, anti's want people listen to their words, not read, not pray, but trust them... Let's see, who was it that was anti choice?

CF: And when you catch the fuller drift of Joseph Smith statements (D&C 93 & otherwise), Smith was obsessed with making men eternity-to-eternity on par with God!

Wait, were we talking about my testimony or Joseph Smith and the D&apm;C? You guys need to FOCUS!

As for making Men equal to God, did you see my little thing on atonement? It's not written by Mormons, but it's pretty good. Here, I'll link it again just so you don't have to go look for it. The link

CF: I mean not only does Smith claim contemporary people were present in a "pre-existence" and saw Heavenly Father pick Jesus over Satan as the world's savior, but even before that Smith places the spirit-intelligences of men as equal with Heavenly Father & millions of other gods! Here's what I mean:

The preexistence of souls is not a new doctrine, the Disciples knew about it and talked about it. John 9:1-2

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

From this we know that the disciples knew that men existed before they were born, and the could sin as Satan did.

Romans 8:16-18

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

All I am doing is repeating scriptural beliefs, beliefs that the early church had On my page in the section on Hippolytus, In the section from Book X of a refutation of all heresies which was the tenth book in the series written by Hippolytus, he makes it clear that this was the belief of the early Christan church. A restoration needs to restore things to the way they were, not follow upstart, man-made doctrines like the nicene creed.

Here is my favorite line that ends his summation:

For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!"

CF: "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." [Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church, p. 210]

I thought yo were helping me with my testimony and I don't remember saying that... Wait, I didn't say that. and if it's not a quote from me, oh wait you are quoting a non cannon book and not linking... /waste of time.

Now for my testimony as originally posted. TN asked: How does God feel towards you ???

DU responds:

God loves me so much that he allowed me to come down to earth and become more like him, then knowing I was weak, allowed his only begotten son to come and give his life for me. No man deserves the love that the Godhead has shown us, they united in their love for me, have planned to give me every opportunity to return to them and inherit their kingdom if I will just accept and obey their commandments. I would that I was a better Christian than the poor example I am now... This love has been extended to every man, which I believe does not lessen it's power one bit.

I do not think anyone will come away with the haughty light that your "edits" would portray me in. What I wrote was heartfelt and I will not take back a word of it no matter how what I said is twisted.

...that's exactly my problem with you guys and the Book of Mormon, I invite people to read it themselves, and pray abou it to God, anti's want people listen to their words, not read, not pray, but trust them...

Tell me, Did you pray about the Bible before accepting it as true? And what about the parts you may not be accepting as true? Did you pray about that, too?

And if you have prayed about the Bible, which version? The KJV? The JST? (If not, why not?)

And if you've prayed about the KJV, why?

Didn't Joseph Smith say: "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors..." (History of the Church, 6:57-58)

So, if Smith is right, then did you only pray about the "Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers?" (Well, I guess that'd be a bit hard since Smith says we don't have it)

But then again we don't have the "Book of Mormon as it read when it came from the pen of the original dictation team," do we? Martin Harris took 116 pages home & his wife tucked them away somewhere.

So which version of the Book of Mormon are you asking us to pray about?
The pre-Martin Harris episode version?
Or perhaps the 1830 published version?
Or the several-thousand-changes-later 1981 version?

I thought yo were helping me with my testimony and I don't remember saying that... Wait, I didn't say that. and if it's not a quote from me, oh wait you are quoting a non cannon book and not linking

OK, here's the Joe Smith "canonized" version:

"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence...was not created or made, neither indeed can be...For man is spirit." (D&C 93:29, 33)

"God...allowed me to come down to earth" [DU]

So, let's cut to the chase of my response without you further re-hashing your testimony as originally presented...

Why? Well, you've now presented it twice in full context (always your concern). The reason I'm focusing on one phrase of it is exactly the same reason why you don't answer every jot & tittle comment made your way. You're selective. In the interest of time & energy & interest, you choose. You "edit" which phrase or word you're going to respond to. And you post it. IOW, even when you quote a poster in full graph, you still only address a small segment of what they say. (We all do it)

Well, that's what I just did: I focused on that phrase 'cause you opened up an interesting angle of "your testimony" that most Mormons don't bring up...what I'd like to know is: Is your testimony distinct from the following oft-unspoken-but-believed Mormon belief system testimony?

Mormons believe in eternal progression -- so let's see what that looks like hitting the rewind button -- and (this is where you come in, DU): Does the "essentials" of what follows (not my fancy expression of them, but the core kernel inside), represent your "life bio," too?
(a) "Man was also in the beginning with God" (D&C 93:29)
(b) Man's "intelligence spirit" was uncreated/unmade (D&C 93:29,33)
(c) Somehow these eternal intelligent spirits THEN get born...as spirits....to a "Mom-god"...even though they've always existed...go figure
(d) THEN, these eternal-intelligent-spirits-born-to-a-Mom-god-as-spirits await an earthly body...they await marital & premarital & plural union marital sex to result in bodies that they can -- to use your words -- "to come down to earth" for habitation purposes
(e) THEN, having forgotten everything they've ever learned before, pretty much disregarding that "intelligence" from eternity, these eternal now twice-born intelligence-spirits (twice born after never originating as intelligence-spirits, that is) start again from ground zero...on planet Earth
(f) YET, Lds leaders also say these ground-zero kids are "gods in embryos"...and that confuses me, too...I mean, they were already apparently embryos in their mom's womb on earth PLUS in their Mom-God's physical womb in heaven (or whereever) and have now twice matured from that "embryo" stage -- yet they're embryos a third time?
(g) And then you get to grow up, with your life being an active audition for full godhood...
(h) Then you die...hopefully graduating to a fully mature god that will be fully worshiped and prayed to by perhaps millions & billions of your "increase" [Smith's word as this whole thing is all about having your personal planetary/star-like "kingdom"; Smith said if you don't marry as part of an everlasting covenant, then that would be "the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase." (see D&C 131:1-4) ... meaning no new spirit babies coming from your wife/wives on that new planet/star]
(i) And what then?

Well, according to Joseph Smith, who was talking about the righteous who died: "...[they] shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before." (History of the Church: 6:306)

There ya go: Hit the "god station" of life big time, glory & exaltation & power of the divine magnitude to you & all other gods.

So, is that also your goal? Is that your destiny, DU? If you were to look back from your future life-as-a-god, would all this be your "life bio testimony?"

Which parts are "yes" and which are "maybe" and which are "no" -- and why/why not?

One other note: You know, those "everlasting burning" dwelling comments as a "good thing" by Smith kind of bother me. For example, Smith also said: "...Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings..." (History of the Church, 1:455)

(I almost get the feeling that Smith was enticed by unnamed personages from beyond who told him, "Hey, come live with us in everlasting burnings." And he apparently took up their offer)

And how did Smith further describe this locale?

"Those who have done wrong always have that wrong gnawing them. Immortality dwells in everlasting burnings." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 367)

Some "gospel" that is, DU. Always -- everlastingly -- having that wrong gnawing at them -- never removed by the substitutionary blood of Christ. How is that kind of "immortal life" in "everlasting burnings" some kind of grand experience? (I just don't get it; perhaps you can unravel this Mormon maze for me?)