Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II

CatholicExchange.com ^ | May 22nd, 2009 | Christopher West

[bronxville]

“You must choose what authority to believe tradfition and fables or Holy Scripture authority.”

The New Testament is solely a Catholic document and as such they have the Authority to declare that the New Testament is not a complete record of Christian doctrine. In fact, everything in the New Testament was Sacred Tradition before the Sacred Magisterium of the Catholic Church elevated it as Sacred Scripture. And both the Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition cannot be correctly interpreted without Sacred Magisterium. Those are the facts.

Sacred Scripture:

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Corinthians 11:2)

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)

[bronxville]

“God allowed Mary’s yes to apply to her soul before she was born to allow her to be the holy ark in which to carry the new covenant, Jesus Christ. Since he could not dwell in sin, he who knew no sin, she was preserved FROM sin, which is why she spoke of her savior.”

Yes, because to say otherwise would have our Blessed Mother tainted with the devil while carrying the Son of God thus tainting Our Lord and Savior.

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

I have discussed the Theology (the study of God). No problem my friend.I'll go... Just trying to make you think about things. You had no answers so I must go.. the left uses that tactic alot... They(the religious leaders of Jesus’s day) also did that alot to The Lord Jesus Christ...Away with Him...! St. John 3:18-21,17,19:15

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you (John 15:18) I.F.

[AnAmericanMother]

Ummmm . . . answering the call for a Greek reader here (can't call myself a scholar - only two years of Classical and Homeric in college).

tapeinwsis in my Liddell and Scott is translated as low estate, or spiritual abasement (that's a classical, not a koine, dictionary so it has no theological axe to grind). It appears to derive from the word for "short" as in "low stature". It has a secondary meaning of "low" as in mean or poor - as your grandmother might say, "Don't act like that, it's low!"

So I suppose if you really wanted to stretch a point you could get all the way to "vile", but that's doing violence to the Greek, especially in the context, since the Archangel has just addressed Mary as kecaritwmenh - "completely graced". The verb form is interesting and unique because it implies that this is a 'steady state' and has existed from all time.

It's also interesting if you look at a parallel Greek Testament (there are several on line, from Bible Colleges as well as scholarly sites) there is NO translation that goes for your interpretation of "vile" - all link together "servant" or "handmaiden" and "humility", including Young's Literal Translation - and Young was a Scotch Presbyterian and a Wee Free at that (and a notable scholar in both Hebrew and Greek).

Where did you get the interpretation of tapeinwsis as "vile"? Did you consult a dictionary? Did you read it in a scholarly work? Source, please.

[Servant of the Cross]

>> Again, give me Holy Scripture..not writings a about what people think.<<

>> You had no answers so I must go<<

Dear Fisherman. I came upon a ping of this thread this morning. In Post #8, Salvation answered your request. In Luke Chapter 1, the beauty of Mary’s role is clearly presented in sacred scripture (and where the prayer of the Rosary comes from):

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.

Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

My prayer (possibly inspired by the Holy Spirit): Dear Fisherman, please do not persist in your ignorance.

[frogjerk]

BUMP!

[Salvation]

Thank you. I was aware that the interpretation was in error, but had no background proof.

[FourtySeven]

Thanks to American Mother for her work with your question about the Greek. Given her points, I too would like to see how you translate it as "vile estate".

About your separate issue of "God my Savior", I believe you may find this article on catholic.com helpful. Immaculate Conception and Assumption. Pay close attention to the section "Fundamentalists' Objections". It begins, "Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior."

The main point is that Catholics don't deny that Mary "needed a Savior". The way she was saved was simply different than the rest of us.

These are, I believe, all examples of poor catechesis; a common problem that plagues the Church. This isn't meant to disparage you; believe me probably about 95% of Catholics are taught about the Faith poorly. Pretty much all of us are "re-learning" our faith thanks to the tool of the Internet and other easily accessible sources of information.

This poor catechesis is the primary reason why so many, when they "pick up their Bibles and read for themselves" leave the Church. It's not that the Bible contradicts Catholicism; it's simply that many Catholics aren't taught how the two actually do agree!

I urge you, brother, to consider the possibility that you were simply taught erroneous beliefs about Catholicism (or you were given incomplete teaching) when you were younger, and re-examine the Faith today, learning what Catholics really do believe, and not what you think we believe.

The truly best way to do this is, ironically, on your own. Read catholic.com. Visit with a priest. Listen to programs like, "The Journey Home".

Debates on Internet fora can only take you so far; and ultimately people (in the heat of debate especially) will say something wrong. Thus, online debates should not be the benchmark for one's acceptance or rejection of Catholicism.

[AnAmericanMother]

Amen to all that FourtySeven says!

I am a convert myself, from the Episcopalians, but my conversion was a long time in the making. A good classical education put me on the road, along with studying Medieval and Renaissance history (as Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant). And of course if you hear and sing the music of folks like Palestrina, di Lasso, Tallis and Byrd (the last two were Catholic but were left strictly alone by the authorities), that's a conversion experience in itself.

The important thing is to find out for yourself. Read and study. Plenty of folks here will be happy to give you suggestions. Here's mine:

It's old-fashioned and uncompromising, and it's intended particularly for Anglicans (the author was head of the Church Missionary Society for years). But if you want answers, it's got answers.

[AnAmericanMother]

I never thought that Greek 101/102 was going to prove so useful . . . :-D

[chase19]

Good point. I had never thought of that...the Catholic Church got it right.

[chase19]

Good work and very informative. Thanks. :)

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

There is absolutely no scripture to uphold that position..All have sinned! (Romans 3:23)...even Mary.

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

My friend ..I’m not Mary Hating..She truly was blessed (Happy) and
I call her blessed and beloved but...you guys have turned her into to someone she is not. She was highly Favored of God to provide the body of The Savior of the world. that’s it...she needed a Savior. only a sinner (not perfect) as we all are needs a Savior.

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

Not so! god by passed the seed of Fallen man. It is man that the inherited sin or imperfections of man after the fall are passed on by. God removed Man from the equation and the Holy spirit super naturally cause Mary to conceive. That argument is baseless -then how could Mary be sin less with out an sinless mother and so on and so on...think it out my friend... ALMIGHTY GOD BY-PASSED THE SEED OF FALLEN MAN. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE. tHAT IS HOW JESUS(GOD THE SON) WAS GIVEN A PERFECT SINLESS BODY TO DWELL IN.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: hEBREWS 10:5

[wombtotomb]

Sigh. He did not bypass man, Mary is man. Hence Jesus being Fully HUMAN and Fully DIVINE.

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

and I groaned in my spirit......Read Genesis 5.. Adam begot a son in “his image” a sinner like you and me. Mary is a woman.... and from the seed of her father... the corruption comes from the seed of man ..our fallen humanity..... stop trying to justify your foolish traditions when Holy Scripture is absolutely clear on it. There is no Scripture to support the Immaculate conception..... Absolutely none.. if you want to believe a lie and Not Almighty’ God's Holy Word...then be my guest... it's your life... the IC is just your own human way of trying to figure out and comprehending how Mary can conceive a Body for Almighty God the Son who is Spirit and Deity. If she was sinless she would never needed a Savior as she has stated..

My friend let go of your traditions and let Almighty God's Word be your instruction manual about Christian truth and doctrine.

thanks for the good debate! David the mailman http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/06/just-broken-egg.html