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THE FOUR LAST THINGS: VI. On the Loss of the Beatific Vision of God.
catholictradition.org ^ | FATHER MARTIN VON COCHEM, O.S.F.C.

Posted on 04/28/2009 9:00:27 PM PDT by GonzoII

THE FOUR LAST THINGS ---- DEATH, JUDGMENT, HELL and HEAVEN
FATHER MARTIN VON COCHEM, O.S.F.C.

Father Martin von Cochem was born at Cochem, on the Moselle,
in the year 1625, and died at Waghausel in 1712.

“Remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin.”

HOLY REDEEMER LIBRARY

Nihil Obstat: Thomas L Kinkead,  Censor Liborium
Imprimatur: Michael Augustine --- Archbishop of New York (New York October 5, 1899)


Copyright, 1899, by Benziger Brothers

PART III. ON HELL.

VI. On the Loss of the Beatific Vision of God.

 

WE have already spoken of many and very terrible chastisements inflicted on the damned, but these are but a very insignificant portion of the whole.  They are countless in number; and so great and awful that, as St. Augustine says, all the suffering of this world is as nothing when compared with the everlasting fire and torments of Hell. 

Just as the Apostle Paul says: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love Him," so it may be said: Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, what punishments God hath prepared for those on whom His just judgments fall. And when we read the fearful chastisements wherewith God threatens to overwhelm, even in this world, the transgressors of His holy law, may we not feel sure that He will pour out all the fury of His anger upon those bold sinners who set at naught His warnings, and with fiendish malice, persist in their iniquity unto their life's end?

Remember what God said to the people of Israel: "A fire is kindled in My wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest Hell; and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains. I will heap evils upon the transgressors of My law, and will spend My arrows among them. They shall be consumed with famine, and birds shall devour them with a most bitter bite; I will send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the fury of serpents. Without the sword shall lay them waste, and terror within, both the young man and the virgin, the sucking child with the man in years" (Deut. xxxii. 22-25).

Holy Scripture contains many similar and equally appalling menaces. There is no doubt that in the next world, where justice, not mercy, will rule, God will chastise the insolent violators of His holy commandments with an unsparing hand. The punishments of eternity will be without number and without limit. The damned will be encompassed with trouble and sorrow, with agony and torments innumerable. St. Bernard says the pains of the damned are countless, no mortal tongue can enumerate them.

Yet of all these pains, that which gives the keenest anguish is being deprived of the vision of God. It will never be given to the damned to behold the Divine countenance. This pain will far outweigh all the other torments of which we have spoken.

It is impossible for mortal man to understand how this can be so great an affliction for the damned.

Yet such is the teaching of the Fathers ; they all maintain that there is nothing which the lost bewail so bitterly as being shut out forever from the vision of God. Whilst we live in this world, we think but little of the vision of God, and what it would be to us to be deprived of it eternally. This arises from the bluntness of our perception, which prevents us from comprehending the infinite beauty and goodness of God, and the delight experienced by those who behold Him face to face. But after death, when we are freed from the trammels of the body, our eyes will be opened, and we shall at least to some extent perceive that God is the supreme and infinite Good, and the enjoyment of Him our highest felicity.

And then such an eager desire will take possession of our soul to gaze upon and enjoy this supreme Good, that she will be irresistibly drawn to God, and will long with all her powers to contemplate His ineffable beauty. And if on account of her sins she is deprived of this beatific vision, it will cause her the most intense anguish. No grief, no torture known in this world can be in any wise likened to it.

St. Bonaventure bears witness to this, when he says: "The most terrible penalty of the damned is being shut out forever from the blissful and joyous contemplation of the Blessed Trinity." Again, St. John Chrysostom says: "I know many persons only fear Hell because of its pains, but I assert that the loss of the celestial glory is a source of more bitter pain than all the torments of Hell."

The evil one himself was made to acknowledge this, as we read in the legends of Blessed Jordan, at one time General of the Dominican Order. For when Jordan asked Satan, in the person of one who was possessed, what was the principal torment of Hell, he answered: "Being excluded from the presence of God." "Is God then so beautiful to look upon?" Jordan inquired. And on the devil replying that He was indeed most beautiful, he asked further: "How great is His beauty?" "Fool that thou art," was the rejoinder, "to put such a question to me! Dost thou not know that His beauty is beyond compare?" "Canst thou not suggest any similitude," Jordan continued, "which may give me to some extent at least an idea of the Divine beauty?" Then Satan said: "Imagine a crystal sphere a thousand times more brilliant than the sun, in which the loveliness of all the colors of the rainbow, the fragrance of every flower, the sweetness of every delicious flavour, the costliness of every precious stone, the kindliness of men and the attractiveness of all the Angels combined; fair and precious as this crystal would be, in comparison with the Divine beauty, it would be unsightly and impure."

"And pray," the good monk inquired, "what wouldst thou give to be admitted to the vision of God?" And the devil replied: "If there were a pillar reaching from earth to Heaven, beset with sharp points and nails and hooks, I would gladly consent to be dragged up and down that pillar from now until the Day of Judgment, if I could only be permitted to gaze on the Divine countenance for a few brief moments."

Hence we may gather how infinite is the beauty of the face of God, if even the spirit of evil would submit to such physical torture as he describes for the sake of enjoying for a few moments the sight of that gracious and majestic countenance. There is therefore no doubt that nothing is a source of such anguish to the devils and the damned as being deprived of the beatific vision of God.

Consequently, if God were to send an Angel to the portals of Hell, with this message to the wretched denizens of that place of torment: "The Almighty has in His mercy had compassion on you, and He is willing you should be released from one of the penalties you endure; which shall it be?" What thinkest thou would be the reply? They would all as one man exclaim: "O good Angel, pray God that if only of His bounty He would no longer deprive us of the sight of His countenance! "This is the one favour they would implore of God. Were it possible for them, in the midst of Hell-fire, to behold the Divine countenance, for the joy of it they would no longer heed the devouring flames. For the vision of God is so beauteous, so blissful, so full of rapture and infinite delight, that all the joys and attractions of earth cannot compare with it in the remotest degree.

In fact, all celestial happiness, how greatsoever it might be, would be turned to bitterness if the vision of God was wanting; and the redeemed would choose rather to be in Hell, if they could there enjoy that Beatific Vision, than be in Heaven without it. Just as the privilege of be holding the Divine countenance constitutes the chief felicity of the blessed, the one without which all others would be no happiness at all, so it is the chief misery of Hell, that the lost souls should for ever be excluded from it. On this subject St. John Chrysostom says: "The torments of a thousand Hells are nothing in comparison to the anguish of being banished from everlasting bliss and the vision of God."

To realize, in some measure, how great this pain of loss is, we should bear in mind that we have been created by God to be forever happy. This love of happiness, this yearning for it, which every one of us feels in his heart, will never be destroyed, not even in Hell. During this life men, impelled by this desire and blinded by passion, seek happiness in riches, in honours, in sensual gratification. These vain images of happiness deceive us so long as our soul is united with our body. But after the soul has severed her connection with the body, all these false, fleeting pleasures disappear, and she becomes aware that God alone is the source of all happiness, and that she can find happiness solely in the possession of Him.

No longer deceived by false appearances, no longer blinded by passion, she perceives clearly the ineffable, ravishing beauty of God and His infinite perfections ; she sees His infinite power in creating the world, His infinite wisdom in governing it, His excessive love for her in be coming man, in dying for her, in giving Himself to her as the food of her soul in the Blessed Sacrament, in destining her to share His own happiness forever in Heaven. This knowledge of the grandeur, of the goodness and loveliness of God will remain deeply impressed on her for all eternity. She will also see the justice of the punishments which God inflicts forever in Hell upon all those who do not keep His commandments.

Then the reprobate soul, yearning after happiness, and feeling irresistibly drawn to God, who alone can make her happy, endeavours to rush to God with all the impetuosity of her nature, in order to behold Him, to enjoy Him, to be united to Him; but she finds herself repelled with infinite force from God, and hated by Him on account of her sins. Were all the riches, honours and pleasures of the world now offered to that soul, she would turn away from them, and would even curse them all, for she yearns for God alone, and can be happy only in God.

The reprobate soul in Hell, spurred on by frightful pains, looks about her for some alleviation, for some word of comfort; but not even a sympathizing look greets her, for she is surrounded by cruel devils and bitter enemies. Not meeting with any compassion where she is, she raises her eyes to Heaven, and beholds it so beautiful, so enchanting, so delightful, so full of true happiness. She remembers that she was created and destined to enjoy its bliss, and now, in the midst of her most excruciating pains, she longs for its pleasures with a still more indescribable yearning, and makes extraordinary efforts to go there, but she cannot leave her abode of torment.   

No one in Heaven seems to take any notice of her.  She sees the throne that God, in His goodness, had prepared for her, now occupied by someone else ! There is no longer any room for her in Heaven. She beholds there some of her relatives, of her companions and acquaintances; but they do not heed her. She beholds all the elect in Heaven full of joy and gladness. They do not even sympathize with her, but as the Psalmist sings, "the just will rejoice when he shall see the revenge" (Ps. Ivii. ii).

In vain the reprobate soul calls on the Saints, on the Blessed Virgin and on our Divine Saviour Himself. She feels drawn to God by an irresistible impulse, and understands that God alone can quench her thirst for enjoyment and make her happy. She longs to see and possess Him; she repeatedly endeavours to spring towards Him, but she feels herself repulsed by Him with invincible force; she beholds herself the object of Divine wrath, of the Divine anathema. She is aware that her case is hopeless, and that she shall never be admitted into the mansions of the blessed, or leave the abode of endless misery.

Despair seizes her; she utters the most fearful imprecations against God and the elect, against Heaven, against herself, her parents, her companions, against all creatures. All Hell resounds with her horrid blasphemies, and she becomes, in her ravings, an object of terror to all the other reprobates.

www.catholictradition.org/Classics/4last-things3f.htm




TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: thefourlastthings
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first 1-2021-25 next last
 Who is like unto God?........ Lk:10:18:
 And he said to them: I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven.

Complete title: THE FOUR LAST THINGS ---- DEATH, JUDGMENT, HELL and HEAVEN

1 posted on 04/28/2009 9:00:27 PM PDT by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII
This is exactly the news we all need to hear.

It is precisely the last thing one would hear in a mainstream Catholic Church nowadays.

The difference between the world of yore and ours is that most people, Catholic or not, had this sort of theology in their database.

Like it, love it, hate it, or be indifferent to it; it nevertheless was the coin of their daily meditation and thought. It colored their speech and influenced their legislation.

We have lost this, and now anyone who propounds it is a pariah; nevertheless it is the order of the Universe.

2 posted on 04/28/2009 9:14:34 PM PDT by caddie ("Every cat is a masterpiece." -- Leonardo da Vinci)
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To: GonzoII

I’m sorry that I missed the earlier titles.


3 posted on 04/28/2009 9:20:20 PM PDT by diamond6 (Is SIDS preventable? www.Stopsidsnow.com)
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To: GonzoII
Don't forget to mention what fate befalls all the babies, born and unborn, who die without Catholic baptism:

The Limbo of Infants is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.

Since at least the time of Augustine, theologians, considering baptism to be necessary for the salvation of those to whom it can be administered have debated the fate of unbaptized innocents, and the theory of the Limbo of Infants is one of the hypotheses that have been formulated as a proposed solution.

Some who hold this theory regard the Limbo of Infants as a state of maximum natural happiness, others as one of "mildest punishment" consisting at least of privation of the beatific vision and of any hope of obtaining it. This theory, in any of its forms, has never been dogmatically defined by the Church, but it is permissible to hold it.

Recent Catholic theological speculation tends to stress the hope that these infants may attain heaven instead of the supposed state of Limbo; however, the directly opposed theological opinion also exists, namely that there is no afterlife state intermediate between salvation and damnation, and that all the unbaptized are damned.

4 posted on 04/29/2009 6:02:49 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Ashes on the head are for mourning the dead; my God lives, Hallelujia!!)
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To: T Minus Four
"Recent Catholic theological speculation tends to stress the hope that these infants may attain heaven instead of the supposed state of Limbo; however, the directly opposed theological opinion also exists, namely that there is no afterlife state intermediate between salvation and damnation, and that all the unbaptized are damned."

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," 64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church

5 posted on 04/29/2009 7:49:02 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: T Minus Four
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church
6 posted on 04/29/2009 7:55:52 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

I am quite familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.


7 posted on 04/29/2009 8:33:03 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Ashes on the head are for mourning the dead; my God lives, Hallelujia!!)
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To: GonzoII

I also have two stillborn siblings buried, without names, in unmarked graves.


8 posted on 04/29/2009 8:35:01 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Ashes on the head are for mourning the dead; my God lives, Hallelujia!!)
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To: T Minus Four
"I also have two stillborn siblings buried, without names, in unmarked graves."

Many people have lost siblings to still births, my sympathies; what does that have to do with your spreading untruth about the Catholic Church, after all you admit you have the catechism.

I'm taking it you wanted to lead people into believing that The Catholic Church teaches that unbaptized infants burn in hell...?

9 posted on 04/29/2009 8:45:52 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
Well sure, the CURRENT version of the catechism. It really all depends on who you ask and when you asked it.

Some Church leaders have commented on the fate of unbaptized infants:

4th century CE: St. Gregory of Nazianzus (circa 329 - circa 390) commented in Orat., XL, 23 that infants dying without baptism "will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked." This was the common view of the early Church Fathers.
Pope St. Siricius insisted on the baptism of infants as well as adults lest "each one of them on leaving the world, loses both [eternal] life and the kingdom."

5th century CE: St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430) convinced the Council of Carthage (418 CE) to reject the concept of limbo "of any place...in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness." According to the Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Augustine and the African Fathers believed that unbaptized infants share in the common positive misery of the damned, and the very most that St. Augustine concedes is that their punishment is the mildest of all." i.e. they go to Hell for eternal punishment, but are not as badly treated as other inmates. According to Revelation 14:10, the infants would be tortured in the presence of Jesus. However, this verse is ambigous about whether Jesus is directing or merely observing the torture.

11th century: St. Anselm (1033 - 1109 CE) supported St. Augustine's belief that "unbaptized children share in the positive sufferings of the damned [in Hell]."

12th century: Peter Abelard (1079 - 1142) deviated from St. Augustine by rejecting material torment (poena sensus) and retained only the pain of loss (poena damni) as the eternal punishment of unbaptized infants for their original sin.

13th century: St Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), who was the first major theologian to speculate about the existence of a place called limbo. Its name is derived from the Latin limbus which means "hem" or "edge". There, on the edge of heaven, the unbaptised would exist in a state of what he described as "natural happiness".

14th century: Pope John XXII's issued an Epistle to the Armenians in 1321 CE. Fr. Brian W. Harrison writes that the Epistle, along with two earlier ecumenical councils:
"... teach that the souls of those who die in original sin ... go down without delay into Hell' where, however, they suffer 'different punishments' from those who die in actual mortal sin."
Harrison suggests that this "... could only be infants and the mentally retarded who never reach the use of reason," and who were never baptized. Presumably, the "different punishments" would involve a lighter level of torture of the infants than is experienced by adults who die in moral sin.

15th century: Later writers, {e.g. Griolamo Savonarola (1452 - 1498) and Ambrose Catharinus (16th century)} believed that "the souls of unbaptized children will be united to glorious bodies at the Resurrection."
The Ecumenical Council of Florence wrote in 1442: "Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently."

16th century: Cardinal Cajetan speculated that unbaptized newborns, fetuses, etc people may benefit from a "vicarious baptism of desire." i.e. even though an actual baptism may not have occurred, it might have been desired by the parents, or the church or by someone else. "desired baptism" which had never actually been conducted might have the same power as a real sacrament.
Pope Sixtus V declared in a papal statement that aborted fetuses do not attain the beatific vision in Heaven. From the content of his statement, it appears that newborn and infants who die before being baptized suffer the same fate.
The Council of Trent stated that justification includes the remission of original sin in infants as well as moral sin in adults. They state that justification "cannot take place without the washing of regeneration [i.e. baptism] or the desire for it." Since infants cannot have a desire for baptism, it would appear that only baptism will make it possible for an infant to attain heaven at death.

18th century: A group known as the Jansenists reverted to St. Augustine's belief. They rejected the idea of Limbo in favor of eternal torture of unbaptized infants, etc. in Hell. In response, Pope Pius VI wrote Auctorem Fidei in 1794. It condemned their teaching as being "false, rash, and injurious to Catholic education" because they denied the existence of a place "which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo for children." Pope Pius VI implied that there are two possibilities: that unbaptized infants might spend eternity comfortably in Limbo or they might spend it being tortured in Hell. The Jansenists' denial of the possibility of Limbo was un-Catholic. 19th century: Theologian Heinrich Klee speculated that God might enlighten the infant at the instant of death and enable them to make a decision for or against God.

20th and 21st century Catholic teachings: 1905: Pope Pius X made a definitive declaration confirming the existence of Limbo. However, this was not an infallible statement by the pope:
"Children who die without baptism go into limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but they do not suffer either, because having Original Sin, and only that, they do not deserve paradise, but neither hell or purgatory."

1958: The Holy Office (once the Inquisition and now the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) was critical of some believers who delayed baptism because of their belief in Limbo. They concluded: "Therefore this Supreme Congregation, with the approval of the Holy Father, warns the faithful that infants are to be baptized as soon as possible..." (Acta L, 114).

1960s: The Second Vatican Council stated, in Gaudium et Spes 22: "For since Christ died for all (Rom. 8:32)...we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all [humans] the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery."

1984: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, stated his personal disbelief concerning Limbo during an interview in . He said that:
"Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith. Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always been only a theological hypothesis."
He has became Pope Benedict XVI in 2005.

1992: Pope John Paul II is reported as having been troubled by the concept of limbo and had mention of it removed from the church's 1992 catechism.

1995: In his encyclical Evangelium Vitae ("The Gospel of LIfe") Pope John Paul II discussed women who have had abortions. He gave an ambiguous statement implying that aborted embryos and fetuses may be in Heaven or Limbo. He wrote: "...You will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord."

1999: Fr. L.E. Latorre comments:
"Children should be baptized within the first weeks after birth. Children in danger of death should be baptized without delay. Catholic parents who neglect or unreasonably put off for a long time the Baptism of their children commit a mortal sin. It would be a mortal sin, for example, to delay or postpone indefinitely the Baptism of a child in order to save-up or prepare for a big feast, a great worldly show, with dances and dinners and what not. Or, to delay the Baptism in order to wait for the coming of a VIP godparent."

Circa 2004: In an article on 2005-NOV-30, the Scotsman newspaper states that Pope John Paul II had written:
"The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God. In fact the great mercy of God, who wants all men to be saved, and the tenderness of Jesus towards children allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who die without baptism." {We have not been able to find a citation for this quotation.}

2005: Fr. Brian W. Harrison conducted a survey of relevant historical Catholic magisterial statements and concluded:
"... that those who now talk about Limbo as only ever having been a mere 'hypothesis', rather than a doctrine, are giving a very misleading impression of the state of the question. They are implying by this that the pre-Vatican II Church traditionally held, or at least implicitly admitted, that an alternate 'hypothesis' for unbaptized infants was their attainment of eternal salvation — Heaven.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Limbo for unbaptized infants was indeed a theological "hypothesis"; but the only approved alternate hypothesis was not Heaven, but very mild hellfire as well as exclusion from the beatific vision! In short, while Limbo as distinct from very mild hellfire was a 'hypothetical' destiny for unbaptized infants, their eternal exclusion from Heaven (with or without any 'pain of sense') — at least after the proclamation of the Gospel, and apart from the 'baptism of blood' of infants slaughtered out of hatred for Christ — this was traditional Catholic doctrine, not a mere hypothesis.
No, it was never dogmatically defined. But the only question is whether the doctrine was infallible by virtue of the universal and ordinary magisterium, or merely "authentic".

2000's: The Church has long taught that infants slaughtered out of hatred for Christianity experienced "baptism of the blood" and would attain Heaven as martyrs. Some contemporary theologians have suggested that aborted fetuses may be considered martyrs and are therefore saved through the same "Baptism of Blood."

Current official Catholic teaching: The current Catechism does not contain a direct mention of Limbo:

10 posted on 04/29/2009 9:20:27 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: T Minus Four
"Well sure, the CURRENT version of the catechism. It really all depends on who you ask and when you asked it."

So where is the official teaching on the fate of unbaptized infants?

Theological speculation is one thing Magisterial teaching another.

Showing different opinions amongst the Fathers in no way proves error in the Magisterial teachings of the the church.

11 posted on 04/29/2009 9:42:57 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

You tell me


12 posted on 04/29/2009 9:44:12 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: GonzoII
Magesterial teachings
13 posted on 04/29/2009 9:56:11 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: T Minus Four
More words on heaven, hell and limbo
14 posted on 04/29/2009 10:00:03 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: GonzoII
So where is the official teaching on the fate of unbaptized infants?

I'll say it again - depends. Popes of the Roman Catholic Church have taken four contrary positions regarding the fate of infants who die without baptism.

The lot assigned by popes to the infants has gradually changed from including hell fire, through involving the pain of loss only and then no pain at all, to full beatitude in heaven.

1. Popes of the patristic era infallibly defined the doctrine of Augustine that unbaptized infants have the eternal torments of the damned in the fires of hell with the devil. We cite Pope Gregory the Great, Pope Zosimus and Pope Innocent I amongst others who taught this.

2. Pope Innocent III adopted the position of Abelard in the twelfth century that unbaptized infants will have the pain of loss but not the pain of fire.

3. Pope Pius X was the first pope to teach that unbaptized infants have no sufferings in his 1905 Catechism.

4. Recent popes, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, have given us to “hope” that all unbaptized infants, and indeed all of humanity, will go to heaven.

15 posted on 04/29/2009 10:05:53 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: T Minus Four
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Letentur coeli,” Sess. 6, July 6, 1439, ex cathedra: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denz. 693)
16 posted on 04/29/2009 10:26:57 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: T Minus Four
"July 6, 1439, ex cathedra: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denz. 693)

The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas THE FIFTH ARTICLE: "He Descended into Hell."

Objection: The Council of Florence in 1439 taught (DS 1306)[693]: "The souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or only original sin descend into the realm of the dead (infernum), to be punished however with unequal "punishments".

"unequal punishments" ( poenis disparibus )

dispar.ibus ADJ. unequal, disparate, unlike;

Reply: 1) The word "poena" in Latin need not always be the same as English "pain" - it can mean merely deprivation of something. As we saw above, Pius IX taught that God does not allow anyone to be punished with eternal punishments without the guilt of personal fault.

Vatican II, "On ecumenism" #6, taught that if any language in older teachings is in need of improvement, it should be improved. Such is the case here, at least if we do not think of the difference of Latin "poena" and English pain. Paul VI in "Mysterium fidei" did not contradict the Council, but said that the older texts are not untrue in themselves, if properly understood.

2) The word "infernum" in Latin means merely the realm of the dead, not hell in the English sense. Cf. the Creed in which we read that after His death, Jesus "descended into hell"- the archaic English use of the word.

3) Our reasoning above tends to show that the aborted babies, and probably other unbaptized babies also, are given grace by God outside the Sacrament of Baptism, and so do not depart this world in original sin, which is merely the lack of grace that should be there.Source: EWTN Library: SCRIPTUR/INFANT

17 posted on 04/29/2009 11:59:07 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Gosh, your reasoning has persuaded me. It all depends on what “hell” means. I am defeated!


18 posted on 04/29/2009 1:37:39 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: T Minus Four
"Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Letentur coeli,” Sess. 6, July 6, 1439, ex cathedra: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denz. 693)"

It is Catholic doctrine that any soul that remains in original sin will not be saved.

The speculation of perhaps God having some way of removing original sin before they die by some other means than that of baptism by water is what has been speculated on.

“The spiritual re-birth of young infants can be achieved in an extrasacramental manner through baptism by blood (cf. the baptism by blood of the children of Bethlehem). Other emergency means of baptism for children dying without sacramental baptism, such as prayer and desire of the parents or the Church (vicarious baptism of desire – Cajetan), or the attainment of the use of reason in the moment of death, so that the dying child can decide for or against God (baptism of desire – H. Klee), or suffering and death of the child as quasi-Sacrament (baptism of suffering – H. Schell), are indeed, possible, but their actuality cannot be proved from Revelation.” Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 114. -Ludwig Ott.

19 posted on 04/30/2009 9:34:39 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
It is Catholic doctrine that any soul that remains in original sin will not be saved.

Oh, I'm quite aware of that.

The speculation of perhaps God having some way of removing original sin before they die by some other means than that of baptism by water is what has been speculated on.

Or perhaps the entire doctrine needs to be reexamined.

20 posted on 04/30/2009 12:15:32 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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