Posted on 04/26/2009 3:36:05 AM PDT by GonzoII
You'd better take it up with St. Paul, because, in his epistles, he keeps asking people to pray for him.
Doesn't he understand that he's not supposed to do that?!?
I already did that...
Doesn't he understand that he's not supposed to do that?!?
You might notice that the Apostle Paul never prayed to anyone other than the Lord...No saints of souls in Heaven, no saints on earth, and no angels...
Paul never asked anyone's soul who rose to Heaven to pray for him, to intercede for him...
When Jesus and Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosom, the bad guy apparently couldn't communicate with Lazarus, who was on the other side...
Well, your tradition ain't Sacred and there's NO Divine guarantee...But anywho, that's the crux of the matter..
Is there one that says we can't, we're all one body in Christ, can you separate one member from another.
Why not just leave the scripture alone??? You guys point to scripture and claim it represents some portion of your tradition, which it doesn't...
Hey, you can pray to anyone you want to and claim miracles from everyone besides God, BUT DON'T CLAIM IT'S BASED ON THE WRITTEN WORDS OF GOD, BECAUSE IT ISN'T...Be honest...
Not everyone who partakes in your Eucharist or attends another denomination is a Christian...THEREFORE, partaking in the Eucharist doesn NOT link the Body of Christ...If it did, there's be a lot of non Christians in the Body of Christ...
Only Christians make up the Body of Christ...
But according to you, he shouldn't be asking anyone to pray for him; he should be going to Christ directly. That's what you said before.
It would seem that, if it's wrong to not "go to Christ directly," then it's just as wrong whether the person you go to Christ through is here on earth or in heaven.
After all, it doesn't say "boldly approach the throne of grace, or approach timidly through an intermediary -- but be sure the intermediary is on earth," does it?
If you're going to use that passage from Hebrews to reject intercessory prayer, then it rejects all intercessory prayer, including that of one believer on behalf of another here on earth.
When Jesus and Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosom
Say again? I think you'd better re-read that parable.
Also, the "bad guy's" inability to communicate with Lazarus is irrelevant, since the "bad guy" wasn't alive and on earth at the time.
We're not doing anything of the sort. We're claiming that the miracle was worked by God through the intercession of the saint, exactly as if your Aunt Bessie prayed for Cousin Sarah's cancer and Cousin Sarah miraculously recovered.
I wouldn't accuse of you thinking that Aunt Bessie had worked a miracle apart from God, now, would I? Of course not.
Simply partaking of the Eucharist without faith or belief in what one is receiving does not make one a member of the Body of Christ. Is that your point? If so, I agree. As usual however, you've got half the story. Because some who receive the Eucharist do so without faith in Christ, does not in any way detract from what the Eucharist is intended to be by Jesus nor does it alter in any way the importance of the Eucharist and what it does for those who believe.
For those who believe, the Eucharist is indeed the bond which unites the Body of Christ. It's not a question of whether faith or the Eucharist unite us to the Body of Christ. Both faith and the Eucharist are necessary. The Eucharist is indeed the Body of Christ who is the Head of the Church, as St. Paul tells us. How could the Eucharist be anything but the spiritual food which unites us to God if it indeed Christ himself whom we are receiving?
That is why Jesus said:
Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6: 54-55
John's Gospel treats of this at some length. Furthermore, the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ as expounded by St. Paul makes it clear that we are the members and Christ is the Head. If Christ is a) truly present in the Eucharist and is b) the Head of the Body, surely partaking of that Eucharist with faith binds one to Christ?
Jesus' final act with his apostles before his Passion and death was the First Eucharist, the Last Supper. This tells us that although Jesus was no longer to be physically present with the apostles they would be united with Him and with each other in the Eucharist.
Only Christians make up the Body of Christ...
True.
That begs the question of who or what is a Christian? See above.
Ok, you got me...Jesus says the father was Abraham...
Also, the "bad guy's" inability to communicate with Lazarus is irrelevant, since the "bad guy" wasn't alive and on earth at the time.
That's what I'm saying...The soul of the man in Hell was prohibited from speaking to his live brothers on earth...
There is nothing in scripture that I'm aware of that allows a soul in Heaven and live people on earth to communicate with each other...
Now you are confusing the matter...We have been saying all along that what you call the Eucharist is 'Spiritual Food'...You guys always claim it is physical meat and blood...
You can't eat something spiritual...
Jesus said His father sent physical food, manna, for physical nutrition...
But Jesus contrasted Himself saying the bread that He provides, which is Himself, nourishes the soul, not the body...Spiritual...
If you physically eat it, it can't be spiritual...What you eat digests in your stomach...Goes into your bloodstream...Flesh...Nothing spiritual about it...
As a Christian, your flesh is circumcized from your soul and spirit...Can't cross over...
It's both. The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty of Our Lord under the apearance (accidents) of bread and wine. You seem to get caught up in the either/or way of thinking very easily as if you want to limit what God can do or put Him in a box.
You can't eat something spiritual...
You can't eat something which is only spiritual. However, the Eucharist is both physical and spiritual. The physical and the spiritual can be bound up in a single entity. Our human bodies are an example. Our physical body houses a spiritual soul which does not die but lives forever. We are both physical and spiritual beings. The former does not preclude the latter.
Jesus said His father sent physical food, manna, for physical nutrition...
True.
But Jesus contrasted Himself saying the bread that He provides, which is Himself, nourishes the soul, not the body...Spiritual...
True again. However, Jesus also says that his Body is real food and His Blood is real drink. It does indeed nourish the soul but it comes to us under the physical accidents of bread and wine.
If you physically eat it, it can't be spiritual...What you eat digests in your stomach...Goes into your bloodstream...Flesh...Nothing spiritual about it...
Try not to limit what God can do. Remember the Gospels where Jesus' disciples grumbled upon first hearing of the Eucharist and said "how can this man give us his body to eat and his blood to drink?" The Eucharist is an example of something in which every Christian must believe; a miracle which transcends our human understanding.
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