Posted on 02/14/2009 6:41:48 PM PST by restornu
This DNA find does not prove the Book of Mormon is true.
This DNA find does shoot big holes in the false conclusion about DNA proving the Book of Mormon wrong.
Yet, many “Christians” will refuse the “new” evidence, because it does not match their pre-conclusions, and they will keep posting it anyway.
The fact that there is Jewish DNA in certain parts of Latin America is not evidence otherwise. Wherever there is Hebrew DNA, there are linguistic, cultural and oral history markers pointing to Sephardic Jews (my people) who fled the Inquisition in Spain & Portugal to the New World. DNA evidence of Sephardim intermarrying and (largely) assimilating is not "evidence" that should remotely influence any rational Christian/Mormon disputation.
For the record, I'm neither Christian nor LDS, so I have no beef in your dispute. I am, however, a supporter of efforts to reach out to those lost Sephardim who want to return to Judaism, and bring them back. Many have secretly kept Jewish traditions behind locked closet doors for centuries.
I was just wondering if you think there might be a difference between Hebrew DNA as one of the lost tribes of Israel, one of which I have read about being Native American Indians, as some Native American civilizations have had traditions of the Ancient Israelites...
Maybe there is just a difference between the religion of Judaism which has many branches currently today, Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist etc..and with Hebrew DNA and verifiable evidence of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel which is more of an inheritance and a culture that involves Torah and the true Israelites.
The 12 Tribes of Israel are located all over the planet so I assume that is more than the Gentile populations if DNA could of been proven since the Diaspora.
The Native Americans aren't "lost tribes" of Israel. Genetically, they are east Asian. They have nothing in common with any peoples from the Middle East, including Jews. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
In fact, there are no "lost tribes" of Israel. Assyrian records indicate that only 27,000 people were exiled. Most of the population was not exiled and assimilated into Judah when Judah reconquered the land of the Northern Kingdom during the reign of Josiah. Many of the rest became the Samaritans. Most Samaritans were killed over the succeeding centuries by the Jews, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs. Most of the remainder assimilated, and are one of bases for today's Palestinian population. A small number (about 600) still exist.
The 27,000 exiles from the Northern Kingdom form the basis for the Jewish communities in northern Iran, Kurdistan and Bukhara (central Asia), all of whom have traditions of being from so-called "lost tribes." Some of the rest intermingled with the Babylonian diaspora, and others just assimilated.
You said:
All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who’ve intermarried in recent generations.
So would that include Gentiles who converted to Judiasm generations ago? how would they have the same DNA? also what about Jews who have converted to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism? they would have the same DNA..
Just wondering how you could determine who’s DNA was similar in Judaism with so many Assimilations and Conversions to Judaism over thousands of years?
I ask of this because the Law of Return to Israel is that you are Jewish wether or not you practice the faith or not.
This would lend issue to many groups wether Ethiopian the Black Jews of your area Chicago could claim they are Jewish and if they could through DNA how many millions could return there?
I just was reading an article about the Jews of Japan, Iran, India all claiming to be one of the Lost Tribes.
Jews are not a race so as many Jews in the world today could trace DNA I assume by there Culture and Race, Black, Arab,Asian, Indian.
Or are you saying a Black Person, White Person,Semetic could all have the Same Hebrew DNA?
This is what I found..If you have interest.
The finding of a common set of genetic markers in both Ashkenazi and Sefardi Kohanim worldwide clearly indicates an origin pre-dating the separate development of the two communities around 1000 C.E. Date calculation based on the variation of the mutations among Kohanim today yields a time frame of 106 generations from the ancestral founder of the line, some 3,300 years, the approximate time of the Exodus from Egypt, the lifetime of Aharon HaKohen..
The finding that less than one-third of the non-Kohen Jews who were tested possess these markers is not surprising to the geneticists. Jewishness is not defined genetically. Other Y-chromosomes can enter the Jewish gene pool through conversion or through a non-Jewish father. Jewish status is determined by the mother. Tribe membership follows the fathers line.
This genetic research has clearly refuted the once-current libel that the Ashkenazi Jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews, but are descendants of the Kuzar tribe—a pre- 10th century Turko-Asian empire which reportedly converted en masse to Judaism. Researchers compared the DNA signature of the Ashkenazi Jews against those of Turkish-derived people, and found no correspondence.
http://www.cohen-levi.org/the_tribe/kohanim_forever.htm
So it seems to be a copulation of DNA markers as well as conversions who could claim Jewishness...
Just a reminder that the tribe of Judah might not know or understand but...
All Jews are of Israel, but NOT all of Israel is of Judah!
There are other tribes and mainly the tribe of Joseph in the South America!
so as far as DNA markers etc at this time in histroy there is yet more to be answered until than there is NO final word!
The Cohen hypothesis was first tested by Prof. Karl Skorecki and collaborators from Haifa, Israel, in 1997. In their study, "Y chromosomes of Jewish priests," published in the journal Nature,[2] they found that the Kohanim appeared to share a different probability distribution compared to the rest of the Jewish population for the two Y-chromosome markers they tested (YAP and DYS 19); and that furthermore the probabilities appeared to be shared by both Sephardi and Ashkenazi Cohens, pointing to a common Cohen population origin before the Jewish diaspora under the Roman empire.In case you just don't understand, Geneticists disagree with you.
How many Israelites went into dispersion? McClintock & Strong's Encyclopaedia gives us the number of Israelites at the time of the captivity: "With regard to population... In 1 Chronicles ch.21 vv.5-6, the numbers (of fighting men) are stated at 1,100,000 (Israel) and 470,000 (Judah) respectively, with the intimation that Levi and Benjamin were not included... According to the general laws observable in such cases, these numbers may be said to represent an aggregate population of from five and a half to six millions..., it may be safely reckoned that the population subject to each king was about four times the number of the fighting men in his dominions." (5) Six million Israelites went out of the land of Palestine into captivity! Out of this large number, how many ever returned? The Bible itself provides us an answer to that question. In the book of Ezra ch.2 vv.1,64-65 we read: "Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity,... The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore. Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women."That was just the first page from a Google, I got almost 3 million hits, I'd be willing to wager a large percentage disagree with you, but I guess they are idiots too...
The returning captives constituted a combined total of only 49,897 persons, or less than 8/10 of one percent of those dispersed! The remainder, nearly six million in 762BC, are still lost to recorded history.
Solid Biblical evidence therefore reveals that over 99% of God's chosen people were removed out of the land of Palestine in ancient times and thereafter lost to history. How could six million people become lost?
Then the thread is open to those with Jewish ancestors?
So how exactly did you determine that they all came from east Asia, and how did they get here?
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Yes, the Native Americans are descended from Asian people who came over the “land bridge” from Russia to Alaska...
Even now you can walk across the ise for just 50 miles from Russia to Alaska...
It use to be all DIRT...
Next assinine comment ????
I’m Jewish, BTW...
That’s HEBREW...
Then the thread is open to those with Jewish ancestors?
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Yes, it’s our Caucus...
No, you just proved that you don't understand genetics. That study showed that Jewish priests, regardless of denomination (Orthodox, Sephardic, Reform etc.) tend to share the same y-chromosome. In case you don't understand, that supports my point. Other studies, such as Hammer's, showed that all Jews, regardless of where they are from (except for Ethiopians) share genetic markers and have similar y-chromosome distribution frequencies. In short, an Iraqi Jew has more in common genetically with a Polish Jew than either has with Polish or Iraqi gentiles.
A rather strong claim to make just on your reputation and no supporting evidence. Sure, how about every single study real scientists (not LDS lackeys) have done? They show East Asian, partially Siberian origins for Native Americans. There is no haplogroup or junk DNA similarity with Middle Eastern groups.
That's really funny, since one of my ancestors was left behind by the group as they traveled north (her diary was preserved because she married royalty, my mom bought a copy translated from the origional Hebrew), but hey you say they don't exist, and with your track record on this post so far, who could doubt you?
I'd like to see that "diary." If it existed, it would be 2700 years old. Not likely.
Do you have a link for this tidbit of information? I'm not doubting you, just wondered if you had any backup what so ever, if not maybe I could help you find some.
We have Assyrian cuneiform records. 27,290 people were exiled. That's it. Google it. You could probably find a picture or two of the actual cuneiform.
You have some "source" saying 6 million (based on some backhanded calculations, based on the Bible). Mazel tov. Those sources are wrong. Assyrian cuneiform says 27,290 people went into the Assyrian exile (the subsequent Babylonian Captivity was much larger). The Assyrians kept excellent records. Those records are supported by the Bible itself -- it notes that part of Israel found sanctuary in Judah and celebrated Passover under Hezekiah, and more found santuary during the reign of Josiah. That wouldn't have been possible if every man, woman and child was deported. But it fits in perfectly with what Assyrian records tell us: the upper classes and royalty were exiled, the common people were left on the land.
The Samaritans were the descendants of the tribes of Israel who intermarried with those who were not Abraham's descendant's which is why the Jews looked on them as half breeds and not "real" Jews. Out of curiosity, where do you get this stuff?
No, that's just what the Bible says. That part of the Bible is a political polemic, reflecting the hatred between Jews and Samaritans (it also says that the Samaritans are idol worshippers, which is false). The Samaritans themselves say that they descend from the common people who weren't exiled by the Assyrians. Genetics has showed that the Samaritans are right -- they are indistinguishable from Jews, at least on the male side. Google it. And yes, there are only 600 Samaritans left. Most live in Holon, a few are still in Nablus.
I would really love to see some sources on this, My brother in law who runs tours over in the middle east for the church should get some of this information, he says they all claim to descend from Ishmael, but then, he's probably an idiot too, huh?
You are saying that the Bukharan, northern Persian, and Kurdish JEWS think they descend from Ishmael?? You are wrong, very wrong. And I don't care what your brother in law says. I have known many Jews from Bukhara, northern Iran and Kurdistan. Most have longstanding traditions of being from the so-called lost tribes. Hell, just ask them. The Bukharan Jews in particular are quite proud of it.
Genetics has proved that there has been practically no conversion among MEN, at least not for thousands of years, and then only from similar population groups (Edomites, Caananites etc.). That why different Jewish populations have such similar y-chromosome markers. There has been substantial conversion among women, although even this too ceased about 1000-1500 years ago. It's actually quite remarkable but true: genetically, Jews are still one population group -- even though some look European, and other look quite Arab.
Jews who converted out assimilated. It's one of the reasons that certain European populations show some "Jewish" genetic markers. For instance, a study that just came out shows that 20% of Spain has distinctively Jewish markers, indicating partial ancestry from Sephardic Jews.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/04/europe/gene.php
This would lend issue to many groups wether Ethiopian the Black Jews of your area Chicago could claim they are Jewish and if they could through DNA how many millions could return there?
Anyone who converts is eligible under the law of return. The Ethiopian Jews converted 2000 years ago, and have been Jews since. Genetically they don't resemble other Jews, but as a matter of Jewish law they are just as Jewish as me. And eligible under the law of Return. The "black Jews" in Chicago (who are really Christians) have not converted. And they are not eligible under the law of Return, although some have moved to Israel in other ways.
There is much written on why the study was bad, I would like to see something on why it was correct.
LOL
Channeling Elsie...
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