Posted on 11/30/2008 4:07:04 PM PST by mbeeber
The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism
by Marshall Beeber
In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective", thereby giving mankind a clearer picture of how God has provided and continues to provide salvation to man throughout history. By acknowledgement of this perspective, an accord between Hebrew Old Covenant and New Covenant prophecy was forged, sweeping away many of the contradictions that divided Christian and Orthodox Jewish prophetic viewpoints. Dispensationalists became God's instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, leading the way in promoting the support of the establishment of the state of Israel and bringing to light the prophetic signposts for the "End of this Age". But when Dispensationalists took a theological stand against the excesses they found in contemporary "Charismatic" Christianity, they "Quenched the Holy Spirit" by denying the validity of most Charismatic Christian spiritual experiences. The result of this schism today is an eschatology shared by both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Protestant Denominations, but a sharp disagreement on the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Dispensationalists claim they are protecting the kingdom of God from spiritual frauds and false theologies, while the Charismatics believe they have tapped into the "true baptism" of spiritual experience. Both sides have valid arguments as well as excesses. The Dispensationalists often times exude an overly dry manner in their presentation of scripture and worship, while the Charismatics often exude a "heart first" approach, which lends themselves susceptible to erroneous doctrine presented in an exuberant fashion. Today most Messianic Jewish fellowships and congregations are disciples of one of the two movements mentioned. As prophetic events move us closer to Messiah Yeshua's (Christ Jesus) return, believers are reminded of the Hebrew prophet Joel's promise of "prophecy, dreams and visions" among the elect of Israel before the great and terrible "Day of the Lord".1 Dispensationalists believe these occurrences were only present in the times immediately following the "Day of Pentecost" and will be present during the times just preceding "Judgment Day", where Charismatics believe these expressions of the Spirit were present from the Day of Pentecost continuously to the present day.2 Nevertheless, as the great "Day of Judgment" approaches, both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians should have more to agree upon than disagree. When Dispensationalists accept they are living in the days just preceding the "Second Coming of Christ", they must also accept the very teachings they originally postulated. So as the "Day of the Lord" draws near, even Dispensationalists must accept those movements of the Spirit prophesied by Joel and recited by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. I believe Messianic Jews (Hebrew Christians) and Gentile Christians from Fundamentalist, Charismatic and Reformed backgrounds will soon come to an understanding that events much greater than themselves will soon shape their understanding of the Lord's will in regards to commonly held beliefs and attitudes. We will all witness the same wonderful signs, tribulations and persecutions, whereby our love for the Lord Yeshua and one another will be tried and refined. It is then that Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ will finally be united in purpose and strength as we all await the "Coming of the Lord". 1. Joel 2:28-29 2. Acts 2:16-18 (Additional studies and commentaries are requested. Feel free to email MLC your materials for posting)
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Actually, I didn't exclude anything. I pointed out that God did not declare genocide against the Jews in the Bible. You mentioned Josephus. I said that Josephus is not the Bible. It's that simple.
This is one of the possible fulfillments of For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
As long as we are quoting history, there are accounts of false Christs preceding the Roman invasion in AD70.
No, they cannot.
Yes, they can.
Luke wrote that before all these events described in the preceding verses (Luke 21:8-11 at least),there would be a persecution. Matthew (and Mark) have the timeline directly backwards.
This is a distinction without a difference. The point is that all these things happened in the context of believers during the 1st century. The fact that one apostles mentions the events in a different is immaterial. There is no chronological requirement of the events in either account. One said A and B and the other said B and A. Neither said A must precede B, or vice versa.
One problem with that point of view is that Luke has the timeline opposite of Matthew/Mark.
Actually, no, he does not.
I don't think it is that simple at all. I cannot ignore the history. I see preterism, the words of John Crysostom, and the genocide practices against the Jews as intertwined. It flowed from their interpretations of the Bible.
As long as we are quoting history, there are accounts of false Christs preceding the Roman invasion in AD70.
And where would that be ? No, let me guess Josephus ...
It is possible that what has come down as Josephus' work was altered by its historical guardians to plant evidence to support their interpretation of what occurred. There is simply no scriptural evidence to support preterism.
This is a distinction without a difference. The point is that all these things happened in the context of believers during the 1st century. The fact that one apostles mentions the events in a different is immaterial. There is no chronological requirement of the events in either account. One said A and B and the other said B and A. Neither said A must precede B, or vice versa.
One said A occurs and then B. Another wrote B occurs before A. Luke has the timeline of the events of opposite order to Matthew/Mark.
How can that be unless you are inventing it on the fly?
As I said, I don't see the discontinuity you claim to see. They are the same pericope recorded by three different individuals. All the "differences" can be accounted for by the different authors and audiences.
Sorry. They do not.
Matthew 24 Mark 13 Luke 21 And Jesus went out, and departed And as he went out of the temple, And as some spake of the temple, from the temple: and his disciples one of his disciples saith unto how it was adorned with goodly came to him for to shew him the him, Master, see what manner of stones and gifts, he said, (5) buildings of the temple. (1) stones and what buildings are here! (1) And Jesus said unto them, See ye And Jesus answering said unto him, As for these things which ye not all these things? verily I say Seest thou these great buildings? behold, the days will come, in the unto you, There shall not be left there shall not be left one stone which there shall not be left one here one stone upon another, that upon another, that shall not be stone upon another, that shall not shall not be thrown down. (2) thrown down. (2) be thrown down. (6) And as he sat upon the mount of And as he sat upon the mount of And they asked him, saying, (7a) Olives, the disciples came unto Olives over against the temple, him privately, saying, Tell us, Peter and James and John and when shall these things be? and Andrew asked him privately, (3) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the Tell us, when shall these things Master, but when shall these age? (3) be? and what shall be the sign things be? and what sign will when all these things shall be there be when these things shall fulfilled? (4) come to pass? (7b) And Jesus answered and said unto And Jesus answering them began to And he said, Take heed that ye be them, Take heed that no man say, Take heed lest any man not deceived: (8a) deceive you. (4) deceive you: (5) For many shall come in my name, For many shall come in my name, for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall saying, I am Christ; and shall saying, I am Christ; and the time deceive many. (5) deceive many. (6) draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. (8b) And ye shall hear of wars and And when ye shall hear of wars and But when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be rumours of wars, be ye not commotions, be not terrified: for not troubled: for all these things troubled: for such things must these things must first come to must come to pass, but the end is needs be; but the end shall not be pass; but the end is not by and not yet. (6) yet. (7) by. (9) For nation shall rise against For nation shall rise against Then said he unto them, Nation nation, and kingdom against nation, and kingdom against shall rise against nation, and kingdom: and there shall be kingdom: and there shall be kingdom against kingdom: (10) famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, and earthquakes, in divers places. (7) there shall be famines and And great earthquakes shall be in troubles: these are the beginnings divers places, and famines, and All these are the beginning of of sorrows. (8) pestilences; and fearful sights sorrows. (8) and great signs shall there be from heaven. (11) Then shall they deliver you up to But take heed to yourselves: for But before all these, they shall be afflicted, and shall kill you: they shall deliver you up to lay their hands on you, and and ye shall be hated of all councils; and in the synagogues ye persecute you, delivering you up nations for my name's sake. (9) shall be beaten: and ye shall be to the synagogues, and into brought before rulers and kings prisons, being brought before And then shall many be offended, for my sake, for a testimony kings and rulers for my name's and shall betray one another, and against them. (9) sake. (12) shall hate one another. (10) And ye shall be hated of all men And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: (13a) for my name's sake. (17) But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (18) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (11) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (12) But he that shall endure unto the but he that shall endure unto the In your patience possess ye your end, the same shall be saved. (13) end, the same shall be saved. souls. (19) (13b) And this gospel of the kingdom And the gospel must first be shall be preached in all the world published among all nations. (10) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (14) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (11) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (12) When ye therefore shall see the But when ye shall see the And when ye shall see Jerusalem abomination of desolation, spoken abomination of desolation, spoken compassed with armies, then know of by Daniel the prophet, stand in of by Daniel the prophet, standing that the desolation thereof is the holy place, (whoso readeth, where it ought not, (let him that nigh. (20) let him understand:) (15) readeth understand,) Then let them which be in Judaea then let them that be in Judaea Then let them which are in Judaea flee into the mountains: (16) flee to the mountains: (14) flee to the mountains; (21a) Let him which is on the housetop And let him that is on the In that day, he which shall be not come down to take any thing housetop not go down into the upon the housetop, and his stuff out of his house: (17) house, neither enter therein, to in the house, let him not come take any thing out of his house: down to take it away: and he that Neither let him which is in the (15) is in the field, let him likewise field return back to take his not return back. (Luke 17:31) clothes. (18) And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up and let them which are in the his garment. (16) midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (21b) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (22) And woe unto them that are with But woe to them that are with But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck child, and to them that give suck child, and to them that give suck, in those days! (19) in those days! (17) in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and But pray ye that your flight be And pray ye that your flight be wrath upon this people. (23) not in the winter, neither on the not in the winter. (18) sabbath day: (20) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (24) For then shall be great For in those days shall be tribulation, such as was not since affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the world to this the beginning of the creation time, no, nor ever shall be. (21) which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (19) And except those days should be And except that the Lord had shortened, there should no flesh shortened those days, no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake should be saved: but for the those days shall be shortened. elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, (22) he hath shortened the days. (20) Then if any man shall say unto And then if any man shall say to And they shall say to you, See you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, here; or, see there: go not after believe it not. (23) he is there; believe him not: (21) them, nor follow them. (Luke 17:23) For there shall arise false For false Christs and false Christs, and false prophets, and prophets shall rise, and shall shall shew great signs and shew signs and wonders, to seduce, wonders; insomuch that, if it were if it were possible, even the possible, they shall deceive the elect. (22) very elect. (24) Behold, I have told you before. But take ye heed: behold, I have (25) foretold you all things. (23) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. (26) For as the lightning cometh out of For as the lightning, that the east, and shineth even unto lighteneth out of the one part the west; so shall also the coming under heaven, shineth unto the of the Son of man be. (27) other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (Luke 17:24) For wheresoever the carcase is, And they answered and said unto there will the eagles be gathered him, Where, Lord? And he said unto together. (28) them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (Luke 17:37) Immediately after the tribulation But in those days, after that And there shall be signs in the of those days shall the sun be tribulation, the sun shall be sun, and in the moon, and in the darkened, and the moon shall not darkened, and the moon shall not stars; and upon the earth distress give her light, and the stars give her light, (24) of nations, with perplexity; the shall fall from heaven, and the sea and the waves roaring; (25) powers of the heavens shall be And the stars of heaven shall shaken: (29) fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (25) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall appear the sign of And then shall they see the Son of And then shall they see the Son of the Son of man in heaven: and then man coming in the clouds with man coming in a cloud with power shall all the tribes of the earth great power and glory. (26) and great glory. (27) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (30) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (28) And he shall send his angels with And then shall he send his angels, a great sound of a trumpet, and and shall gather together his they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to one end of heaven to the other. the uttermost part of heaven. (27) (31) Now learn a parable of the fig Now learn a parable of the fig And he spake to them a parable; tree; When his branch is yet tree; When her branch is yet Behold the fig tree, and all the tender, and putteth forth leaves, tender, and putteth forth leaves, trees; (29) ye know that summer is nigh: (32) ye know that summer is near: (28) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. (30) So likewise ye, when ye shall see So ye in like manner, when ye So likewise ye, when ye see these all these things, know that it is shall see these things come to things come to pass, know ye that near, even at the doors. (33) pass, know that it is nigh, even the kingdom of God is nigh at at the doors. (29) hand. (31) Verily I say unto you, This Verily I say unto you, that this Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till generation shall not pass, till generation shall not pass away, all these things be fulfilled. all these things be done. (30) till all be fulfilled. (32) (34) Heaven and earth shall pass away, Heaven and earth shall pass away: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. but my words shall not pass away. but my words shall not pass away. (35) (31) (33) But of that day and hour knoweth But of that day and that hour no man, no, not the angels of knoweth no man, no, not the angels heaven, but my Father only. (36) which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (32) But as the days of Noah were, so And as it was in the days of Noah, shall also the coming of the Son so shall it be also in the days of of man be. (37) the Son of man. (Luke 17:26) For as in the days that were They did eat, they drank, they before the flood they were eating married wives, they were given in and drinking, marrying and giving marriage, until the day that Noah in marriage, until the day that entered into the ark, and the Noah entered into the ark, (38) flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:27) And knew not until the flood came, Even thus shall it be in the day and took them all away; so shall when the Son of man is revealed. also the coming of the Son of man (Luke 17:30) be. (39) Then shall two be in the field; Two men shall be in the field; the the one shall be taken, and the one shall be taken, and the other other left. (40) left. (Luke 17:36) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (Luke 17:34) Two women shall be grinding at the Two women shall be grinding mill; the one shall be taken, and together; the one shall be taken, the other left. (41) and the other left. (Luke 17:35) Watch therefore: for ye know not Take ye heed, watch and pray: for what hour your Lord doth come. ye know not when the time is. (33) (42) But know this, that if the goodman For the Son of Man is as a man And take heed to yourselves, lest of the house had known in what taking a far journey, who left his at any time your hearts be watch the thief would come, he house, and gave authority to his overcharged with surfeiting, and would have watched, and would not servants, and to every man his drunkenness, and cares of this have suffered his house to be work, and commanded the porter to life, and so that day come upon broken up. (43) watch. (34) you unawares. (34) Therefore be ye also ready: for in Watch ye therefore: for ye know For as a snare shall it come on such an hour as ye think not the not when the master of the house all them that dwell on the face of Son of man cometh. (44) cometh, at even, or at midnight, the whole earth. (35) or at the cockcrowing, or in the Who then is a faithful and wise morning: (35) Watch ye therefore, and pray servant, whom his lord hath made always, that ye may be accounted ruler over his household, to give Lest coming suddenly he find you worthy to escape all these things them meat in due season? (45) sleeping. (36) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (36) Blessed is that servant, whom his And what I say unto you I say unto lord when he cometh shall find so all, Watch. (37) doing. (46) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (47) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (48) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (49) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (50) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (51)
What I'm not seeing is any urgency of order that changes the meaning of the text in any significant fashion. These minor points can all be explained by different authors and audiences. Nothing major. This is futurist gnat-straining, that's all.
If this is the best you can do, have fun with it.
What I'm not seeing is any intellectual honesty. I'm not surprised. This is what I expected from a theology that despises the nation of Israel. I've read this book before.
I see the problem. I'm looking at the text and you are looking at me.
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