Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: topcat54
Are you saying that you deny the noetic effect of sin?

I confess that I'm having trouble making sense of your question: According to Webster, noetic means of, relating to, or based on the intellect. You seem to be adding something to that definition, though from your comment I can't quite make out what it is.

In terms of the basic definition, I believe that I would be affirming sin as a "noetic" entity -- explicitly so, given that "choosing" implies the exercise of the intellect to decide between options. To deny the "noetic" aspects of sin would be to deny the existence of free will, a position that I quite obviously reject.

I do not claim to know the exact manner by which the Fall operates, in the sense of what "mechanisms" are at work. I believe that one aspect of the Fall is to skew our view of the world, and thus the decisions we make as a result. The fact that we decide based on a flawed perspective, still requires the ability to decide.

In that context, I think that the Fall did somehow hinder our ability to decide properly. I would say that the Fall had a "noetic effect," but that it did not shut down our noetic abilities. (Indeed, if that were the case it's difficult to imagine us having this discussion at all!)

Theologically, the noetic effects of sin are "the ways that sin negatively affects and undermines the human mind and intellect." I think that this is undoubtedly true, but it says nothing about the ability to choose; rather, it would refer to our ability to properly discern.

This does not require, however, that all of the inputs to our intellectial are "totally depraved." Indeed, the Gospels depict Jesus as moving among people who are able to recognize Him as something good, even if they often had difficulty in going beyond that recognition.

Thus, we know that we do not possess "free will" in the sense that Adam did prior to the Fall, esp. as wrt doing anything positive/good toward God , like "choosing" eternal life.

You've gone too far here. Even supposing that we can no longer choose to obey perfectly, that does not logically imply that we must choose to disobey completely. Referring again to the Gospels, there are any number of examples of people doing things "positive/good toward" Him, even if they did not fully understand their choice. Consider, for example, the woman in Luke 7:36-50, which ends, And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." Jesus contrasts the behavior of this woman, with that of Simon, His host -- we see in this story both sides of the choice that faces us all.

What's missing in your response is any discussion of the nature of sin: what is sin? Adam sinned by choosing to disobey God. Since you trace our tendency to sin back to Adam, does it not follow that Adam's ability to choose, was passed down to us along with the consequences of his decision? The Gospels certainly indicate this to be the case.

41 posted on 11/20/2008 12:56:26 PM PST by r9etb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies ]


To: r9etb
Theologically, the noetic effects of sin are "the ways that sin negatively affects and undermines the human mind and intellect." I think that this is undoubtedly true, but it says nothing about the ability to choose; rather, it would refer to our ability to properly discern.

I don’t see how you can make a distinction. If one’s ability to discern truth is hampered by sin in and around them, then how can they choose rightly? The mind is clouded by sin, in fact it is actually dead, spiritually speaking. The truth cannot penetrate the mind clouded by sin to the point where sufficient truth to obtain salvation is possible.

That is why we need a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit to put us in the right mind so that the truth of God’s salvation can penetrate and change us. We call this regeneration, and it only comes to God’s elect.

The will is directly related to the mind and also affected negatively by sin. The fact is we do not posses the "free will" that the 1st Adam possessed. We are fallen, and our will is in bondage to sin. Our present "natural" condition is at enmity with God. We hate God and we do not seek His salvation because we do not will to do so. We cannot choose to do good or evil towards God and more than we can choose to jump off a 20 story building and fly like a bird. That action would be entirely contrary to our human nature.

There is nothing in the Bible after the story of the Fall in Genesis that indicates man has a "free will" you have conceived it. "Natural man" is not inclined to do any moral/ethical good towards God. It is only after the working of the Holy Spirit in a person’s life that they are able to do good towards God. Good works, like our faith, is a gift of God, and not something that is innate

What's missing in your response is any discussion of the nature of sin: what is sin?

Simply put, sin is any want of conformity to or transgression of the Law of God. Not all of what Adam possessed is available to us. Adam was able to live forever as long as he obeyed God. When he sinned he lost that ability, and all of his posterity. So too with his ability to choose good and evil. He lost that ability when he sinned and so too all his posterity, until the appearing of the 2nd Adam, who was able to choose good only. There is nothing in the gospels or any place else that indicates unregenerate man is able to choose good towards God. within the fallen soul.

42 posted on 11/21/2008 8:52:41 AM PST by topcat54 ("In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson