Posted on 06/05/2008 9:06:20 AM PDT by Truth Defender
Neither do I. Don't you think that if the thread is a "vanity" in your eyes that it would be a waste of thier and your time to pursue it?
You just did, bubba. You may think your writing is comparable to that of Charles Dickens---but it's still a vanity. And IIRC, the site rules say "no vanities".
Research and conclusions are just that, not proof. Why should someone change their beliefs just because of another persons research and conclusions, even if they hven’t done their own research? Perhaps their beliefs are self-evident, and need no research.>/i>
It's just as I said. While research enforces what one belives, those who don't do research for themselves are not privy to all that is said on any one or more topics found in the Scriptures. And in that respect, do not "know" what or as much as the other person does. Self-evident beliefs are suspect in my humble opinion. Faith doesn't come to anyone without reading or hearing what others have to say (see Romans, chapter ten - "faith come by hearing").
In one respect, you are correct that "research" is "not proof." It is what one gets out of research and how it is harmonized with the totality of Scripture that research makes one more knowledgeable than another. Does that help you?
What would they disagree with?
We are created as eternal beings. Our soul will live forever. The question is where will we live? The answer depends on our choice.
Since the beginning of our existance we are spiritual beings physically dependent on our creator for our being and sustenance. GOD provides us with sun shine and rain, wind and frost, food and shelter. WE broke that relationship when WE decided that WE could provide for ourselves better than GOD could and that started our downward spiral to destruction.
WE try to live independent of GOD and act like HE is not concerned with our small life as HE has to run the entire universe and keep things in order.
That idea comes from our not understanding who GOD is and not wanting to, because if we understood who GOD is then we would be responsible for our actions toward HIM and our fellow men. (men and women) Which puts our motives and actions in the light of who GOD is and what HE has told us about HIMSELF and us, and what HE expects of us in our actions here and now.
The result of our self willed disobedence is separation from a loving and HOLY GOD and out from under HIS protection. It placed us in a situation we were never ment to be in. BUT GOD foreknew that we would do this and JESUS had agreed to take our punishment on HIMSELF before Adam was ever created or drew his first breath.
Isn’t GOD wonderful! :)
The punishment is eternal (Matt 25:46). I won't waste time arguing whether they have a physical body when that happens or not. I just know the individual is not extinguished from existence.
Hmmm...apparently you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:28-29. Both the redeemed and unredeemed are "bodily" raised from the dead...the unredeemed to face judgment. Then in Rev. 20:11-15 we read of the "judgment." Those not found written in the "Book of Life" - the unredeemed - are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. Being thrown into the Lake of Fire is the sentence that the unredeemed face, and that is death! Now, if "death" doesn't means what it means when person dies the first time here on earth, then what do you think it means when spoken of as "the second death?"
Eternal, as I am led to believe you take as "everlasing," would apply to the time period that the "death" of those who are thrown into the lake of fire lasts - a death that lasts the same length of time as those who have "immortal" life. Death is the opposite of Life, anyway you care to put it. This is how it is meant today, and how it is meant in the Scriptures. Death means the extinction of life. Or don't you believe that?
Many would disagree with the premise that we are created as eternal beings and our souls will live forever. Many would disagree that we have any kind of relationship with God, much less, that we broke it. Many would disagree with the whole idea that we were created to love God, heck, many would even disagree that there was a garden of Eden.
Thanks, but it’s not any help.
We can only research that which is KNOWN to man, and everything we research was written by a man, so instead of being able to validate any research, we just have our different beliefs.
Why would a self-evident belief be any more suspect than any other belief? Our constituion is based on self-evidence.
Thank you for the ping. But the writer of the essay apparently wishes to ignore what Jesus said to His disciples when a young man rejected the invitation to join the disciples and Jesus said “Let the dead go bury the dead With the departing young man Jesus sent identity of two identifying ‘deaths’: the youngman’s soul was spiritually dead though his body was still active thus his behavior mechanism was working (his soul of life force); the young man’s father was either bodily dead or to die bodily and ‘dead’ referred to the body death (we may assume, because Jesus said nothing about the spiritual state of the father yet identified the young man’s rejecting of following Him as a state of spiritual death). The confusion is usually wrapped around preconceived notions of dimension Time.
You are teaching annihilationism, which is false. If death were to mean ceasing to exist, you then have to explain how Jesus would use a false, misleading example such as the following to illustrate a point:
Luke 16
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] [Hades] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Footnotes:
- Luke 16:6 Greek one hundred batous (probably about 3 kiloliters)
- Luke 16:7 Greek one hundred korous (probably about 35 kiloliters)
- Luke 16:23 Greek Hades
You will say, oh that's a parable; it's not to be taken literally. To which I say, that doesn't help your case. It would be as absurd as Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a pebble that a man planted in the ground and it grew up to be the greatest of all herbs.
I don't buy it.
There are many other Scriptures that bear on the subject, including those which use the word, "spirit", many of which indicate that man does not cease to exist when his body dies.
Passages such as 2 Corinthians 5 compare our bodies to a tent, a temporary dwelling, in which we live:
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Paul says in Philippians 1:
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
There is also what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, which would make no sense if the thief were going to cease to exist at his death:
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
It cannot be rationally maintained that a person who has purportedly ceased to exist could be either "in torment", or "in Paradise", in the state of physical death as the Scripture explicitly teaches that men are.
Cordially,
That does not change the fact that these things are true.
That people fight so hard against these truths, many their entire life, should give us pause and wonder why someone would fight so hard against something that is “false or not true” spending great amounts of time and energy to try to disprove what we know in our hearts is true.
As far as us having an eternal spirit, what do you do with Rev. 19:20 & 20:10?
Rev. 20:10 uses a present tense verb “are” (where the beast and false prophet are) meaning they are very much alive, still in torment over 1000 years after being cast alive into the lake of fire? Then go to Rev. 20:15 where those whose name is not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jesus left us no doubt that we are eternal beings. Those in rebellion against HIM and HIS WORD do not believe and can not understand things of the spirit. Which takes us back to the beginning of our trouble. Rebellion against GOD and JESUS. Thats why JESUS had to come and die for us, to fix what we broke.
OK
:::sigh::: Go back and actually read what I typed. I simply said I wouldn't waste time arguing whether their eternal punishment was with them in bodily form. I didn't say a thing about whether or not the unrepentent were resurrected.
Those not found written in the "Book of Life" - the unredeemed - are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.
Yes, eternal separation from the love and goodness of God. All they will see of Him for eternity is His wrath. (Death doesn't mean ceasing to exist, even in the physical sense, since as you have already pointed out, there is a resurrection.)
Eternal, as I am led to believe you take as "everlasing," would apply to the time period that the "death" of those who are thrown into the lake of fire lasts.
You can certainly believe that if you wish. I don't. As Revelation 20:10 states "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Clearly, the lake of fire is not a place where individuals cease to exist, or they couldn't be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I’m sorry - I mis-read what you said about eon and eonian and eternal and eternity. You are right.
I plan to post some additional ideas later on today. In the meantime, let me just say that it is my considered humble opinion that death is definitely not a blessing. It is a punishment as God stated. Plus, when our Lord Jesus Christ sent forth the 12 disciples in Mat. 10:8 and told them to raise the dead, etc., if death is such a blessed thing, who would want to be delivered from it? Death, being the companion of sin, is placed into the same category as sickness, leprosy and demons. Doesn’t sound like a blessing to me at all. In 1Cor 15 Paul said death is an enemy to be destroyed. If I am going to be ushered into the presence of God, I expect it will be with my friend, Jesus, and not my enemy, death. Jesus is the life. I prefer Jesus.
Let me drop my “bombshell” as an indication of what I am working on for my next book. The truth of the kingdom of God has been lost because the truth of the second coming of Christ has been superimposed upon it. These are two separate distinct periods of divine activity, the coming kingdom of God, followed by the second coming which results in the “Parousia” of Jesus Christ.
Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? I ask that sincerely.
Absolutely not! I have debated Jehovah's Witnesses many times in my life, and they are not Christians to my way of thinking (of course, it is God who will be the judge of that). And they do not agree with what I say on many, many things; nor with what the Bible says, I may add.
No need to apologize. I feel that many haven't really comprehended what I wrote. The context of verses and passages are not considered by most people in these short posts. Speaking of "eternal and eternity," most people, every time they see that term used in the Scriptures immediately think of "without end." They can't imagine it being anything but that..but, we have to understand, they were taught that all their lives, and find it hard to realize that it doesn't actually mean what they think it means. Those Latin terms first appeared in the Scriptures when Jerome used them in place of "aion and aionios." Even the "Old Latin" translations before Jerome didn't use it (and they will not accept the idea of an earlier version of the Scripture written in Latin as quoted by Tertullian).
I plan to post some additional ideas later on today.
I'll look forward to that.
In 1Cor 15 Paul said death is an enemy to be destroyed. If I am going to be ushered into the presence of God, I expect it will be with my friend, Jesus, and not my enemy, death. Jesus is the life. I prefer Jesus.
Well said. Death is to be destroyed, just as recorded in Rev. 20:14. When individuals (and churches) say that those thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and then deny that death is the ceasation of life, I wonder what they make of the statement that death itself is going to be destroyed? And if death itself is going to be destroyed in the lake of fire, what death will those thrown into the same place be? Will it be a "living death" that goes on forever, or will it be their execution? Not a single person so far has been able to explain to me what the punishment of the unredeemed is going to be, and then back that up with what Jesus and His apostles say. It's very frustrating, to say the least. BTW, I'm not making up that phrase "living death," I hear it all the time from those who deny death is death when it comes to judgment day; In fact, most funeral services speak in tones that the deceased is not really dead - that the deceased is NOW in heaven with Jesus! I just can't go along with that kind of mentality - it is anti-biblical.
Let me drop my “bombshell” as an indication of what I am working on for my next book.
Sounds interesting....keep us advised.
There are many other Scriptures that bear on the subject, including those which use the word, "spirit", many of which indicate that man does not cease to exist when his body dies.
Hmm...now it's not just an "immortal soul" being talked about but also an "immortal spirit." Which is it? Or is there two "immortal" entities within the body of man?
You still want me to expound on those passages mentioned?
Feel free. Knock yourself out. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "tenor" of my post.
Hmm...now it's not just an "immortal soul" being talked about but also an "immortal spirit."
Now sure what you mean by "...now". I've only posted one post to you prior to this one. I will say that that your phrase, "immortal spirit" is a category error. Scripture NEVER modifies the word "spirit" with mortality or 'immortal' the way you just did. A spirit is never once said to die in Scripture. So your "immortal spirit" is a straw man.
You might want to comment on the following ways the word "spirit" is used in Scripture:
Easton’s Bible Dictionary
Spirit: (Heb. ruah; Gr. pneuma), properly wind or breath. In 2 Thessalonians 2:8 it means "breath," and in Ecclesiastes 8:8 the vital principle in man. It also denotes the rational, immortal soul by which man is distinguished (Acts 7:59; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 6:20; 7:34), and the soul in its separate state (Hebrews 12:23), and hence also an apparition (Job 4:15; Luke 24:37,39), an angel (Hebrews 1:14), and a demon (Luke 4:36; 10:20). This word is used also metaphorically as denoting a tendency (Zechariah 12:10; Luke 13:11).
In Romans 1:4,1 Tim. 3:16,2 Cor. 3:17,1 Pet. 3:18, it designates the divine nature.
If you don't like that dictionary pick any reputable lexicon you want and expound to your heart's content.
Cordially,
Thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate that. M
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