Posted on 05/17/2008 6:00:21 AM PDT by sevenbak
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 1, INTRODUCTION
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 2, PREEXISTENCE AND FOREORDINATION OF THE CHRIST.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 3, THE NEED OF A REDEEMER.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 4, THE ANTEMORTAL GODSHIP OF CHRIST.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 5, EARTHLY ADVENT OF THE CHRIST PREDICTED.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 6, THE MERIDIAN OF TIME.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 7, GABRIEL'S ANNUNCIATION OF JOHN AND OF JESUS.
As per RM request:
Caution: this thread has been labeled “ecumenic” which means the poster must not argue against any other beliefs. He can only argue for what he believes – or ask questions.
My Church does not teach this. Baptism was a Jewish (note John the Baptist was Jewish) ordinance, to denote cleanliness. Mikvah (or mikveh) is a specific type of bath designed for the purpose of ritual immersion in Judaism. The word "mikvah", as used in the Hebrew Bible, literally means a "collection" - generally, a collection of water.
Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. Most forms of impurity can be nullified through immersion in any natural collection of water. Jesus did not baptize as part of his ministry. John was baptizing or performing Mikvah out of Jewish custom.
Jesus certainly did not need to be cleansed, He was showing us an example of needing to become cleansed by the Spirit of God, and indeed the Spirit of God like a dove descended (this is my understanding, perhaps more knowledgeable Christians could add their thoughts here). Traditional Christianity teaches that the atonement of Christ was on the cross, and made the fullfillment of righteousness available to mankind.
ec·u·men·i·cal (ky-mn-kl) also ec·u·men·ic (-mnk)
adj.
1. Of worldwide scope or applicability; universal.
2. a. Of or relating to the worldwide Christian church.
b. Concerned with establishing or promoting unity among churches or religions.
I don’t see where an LDS thread does either of the 2 definitions.
Great Council of the God's?
The author seems to just drop that statement like everyone who reads it would understand exactly what he meant by it.
Seven, would you, or any other Mormon, mind explaining what the "great Council of the Gods" was, when it occurred and who participated?
I think that might be helpful to a complete understanding of where the author is coming from.
Thank you.
Bump!
Yes.
Here it is again, it's the first link, titled Preexistence of the Christ..
Previous posts in this series.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 1, INTRODUCTION
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 2, PREEXISTENCE AND FOREORDINATION OF THE CHRIST.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 3, THE NEED OF A REDEEMER.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 4, THE ANTEMORTAL GODSHIP OF CHRIST.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 5, EARTHLY ADVENT OF THE CHRIST PREDICTED.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 6, THE MERIDIAN OF TIME.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 7, GABRIEL'S ANNUNCIATION OF JOHN AND OF JESUS.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 8, THE BABE of BETHLEHEM.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 9, THE BOY OF NAZARETH.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 10, IN THE WILDERNESS OF JUDEA.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 11, FROM JUDEA TO GALILEE.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 12, EARLY INCIDENTS IN OUR LORD'S PUBLIC MINISTRY.
Also, here are references that will help you understand what he is talking about.
Job 38: 7 sons of God shouted for joy.
Isa. 14: 13 exalt my throne above the stars of God.
Luke 10: 18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Rev. 12: 7 war in heaven.
I don't believe that Jews or Christians of any kind before 1830 ever spoke about or preached about a "great Council of the Gods".
It is pretty clear that those verses do not speak to that issue. My question was simple:
Seven, would you, or any other Mormon, mind explaining what the "great Council of the Gods" was, when it occurred and who participated?
If you don't know, that is fine, just say you don't know, but don't leave me or the lurkers in the dark by pointing to random verses that don't really speak to my question.
Thanks for your response.
Let me look them up for you.
Job 38:
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Revelations 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Further, since you were on that preexistence thread, you already know what Elder Talmage said. I'll post that again for you too.
In this struggle between unembodied hosts the forces were unequally divided; Satan drew to his standard only a third part of the children of God, who are symbolized as the “stars of heaven”; the majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, thus accomplishing the purpose of their “first estate”; while the angels who arrayed themselves on the side of Satan “kept not their first estate,” and therefore rendered themselves ineligible for the glorious possibilities of an advanced condition or “second estate.” The victory was with Michael and his angels; and Satan or Lucifer, theretofore a “son of the morning,” was cast out of heaven, yea “he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” The prophet Isaiah, to whom these momentous occurrences had been revealed about eight centuries prior to the time of John's writings, laments with inspired pathos the fall of so great a one; and specifies selfish ambition as the occasion: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”
Justification for citing these scriptures in connection with our present consideration will be found in the cause of the great contention — the conditions that led to this war in heaven. It is plain from the words of Isaiah that Lucifer, already of exalted rank, sought to aggrandize himself without regard to the rights and agency of others. The matter is set forth, in words that none may misapprehend, in a revelation given to Moses and repeated through the first prophet of the present dispensation: “And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying — Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me — Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; and he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.”
Thus it is shown that prior to the placing of man upon the earth, how long before we do not know, Christ and Satan, together with the hosts of the spirit-children of God, existed as intelligent individuals, possessing power and opportunity to choose the course they would pursue and the leaders whom they would follow and obey. In that great concourse of spirit-intelligences, the Father's plan, whereby His children would be advanced to their second estate, was submitted and doubtless discussed. The opportunity so placed within the reach of the spirits who were to be privileged to take bodies upon the earth was so transcendently glorious that those heavenly multitudes burst forth into song and shouted for joy
Satan's plan of compulsion, whereby all would be safely conducted through the career of mortality, bereft of freedom to act and agency to choose, so circumscribed that they would be compelled to do right — that one soul would not be lost — was rejected; and the humble offer of Jesus the Firstborn — to assume mortality and live among men as their Exemplar and Teacher, observing the sanctity of man's agency but teaching men to use aright that divine heritage — was accepted. The decision brought war, which resulted in the vanquishment of Satan and his angels, who were cast out and deprived of the boundless privileges incident to the mortal or second estate.
In that august council of the angels and the Gods, the Being who later was born in flesh as Mary's Son, Jesus, took prominent part, and there was He ordained of the Father to be the Savior of mankind. As to time, the term being used in the sense of all duration past, this is our earliest record of the Firstborn among the sons of God; to us who read, it marks the beginning of the written history of Jesus the Christ.
Old Testament scriptures, while abounding in promises relating to the actuality of Christ's advent in the flesh, are less specific in information concerning His antemortal existence. By the children of Israel, while living under the law and still unprepared to receive the gospel, the Messiah was looked for as one to be born in the lineage of Abraham and David, empowered to deliver them from personal and national burdens, and to vanquish their enemies. The actuality of the Messiah's status as the chosen Son of God, who was with the Father from the beginning, a Being of preexistent power and glory, was but dimly perceived, if conceived at all, by the people in general; and although to prophets specially commissioned in the authorities and privileges of the Holy Priesthood, revelation of the great truth was given, they transmitted it to the people rather in the language of imagery and parable than in words of direct plainness. Nevertheless the testimony of the evangelists and the apostles, the attestation of the Christ Himself while in the flesh, and the revelations given in the present dispensation leave us without dearth of scriptural proof.
In the opening lines of the Gospel book written by John the apostle, we read: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
The passage is simple, precise and unambiguous. We may reasonably give to the phrase “In the beginning” the same meaning as attaches thereto in the first line of Genesis; and such signification must indicate a time antecedent to the earliest stages of human existence upon the earth. That the Word is Jesus Christ, who was with the Father in that beginning and who was Himself invested with the powers and rank of Godship, and that He came into the world and dwelt among men, are definitely affirmed. These statements are corroborated through a revelation given to Moses, in which he was permitted to see many of the creations of God, and to hear the voice of the Father with respect to the things that had been made: “And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.”
John the apostle repeatedly affirms the preexistence of the Christ and the fact of His authority and power in the antemortal state. To the same effect is the testimony of Paul and of Peter. Instructing the saints concerning the basis of their faith, the last-named apostle impressed upon them that their redemption was not to be secured through corruptible things nor by the outward observance of traditional requirements, “But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Even more impressive and yet more truly conclusive are the personal testimonies of the Savior as to His own preexistent life and the mission among men to which He had been appointed. No one who accepts Jesus as the Messiah can consistently reject these evidences of His eternal nature. When, on a certain occasion, the Jews in the synagogue disputed among themselves and murmured because of their failure to understand aright His doctrine concerning Himself, especially as touching His relationship with the Father, Jesus said unto them: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” And then, continuing the lesson based upon the contrast between the manna with which their fathers had been fed in the wilderness and the bread of life which He had to offer, He added: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven,” and again declared “the living Father hath sent me.” Not a few of the disciples failed to comprehend His teachings; and their complaints drew from Him these words: “Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
I was NOT on that thread.
Let me try again:
Seven, would you, or any other Mormon, mind explaining what the "great Council of the Gods" was, when it occurred and who participated?
If you don't know, that is fine, just say you don't know. If you do know, then just please answer the question.
Thanks.
You have had your answer 3 times now. The council in heaven, where 2 choices were laid before us. Christ, the only begotten of the Father, and Lucifer, who fell from heaven after he tried in vain to force all men to give up their agency.
Talmage clearly explains this, if you would take the time to read it.
Who are the Anti-Mormons?
You have had your answer 3 times now.
I really don't think you answered the questions.
The council in heaven, where 2 choices were laid before us.
This ..."council in heaven"... Was that the "Great Council of the Gods" mentioned by Talmage?
Christ, the only begotten of the Father, and Lucifer, who fell from heaven after he tried in vain to force all men to give up their agency.
Were those the "Gods" who attended the "Great Council of the Gods"?
Was Christ a God then? Was Lucifer a God then?
Talmage clearly explains this, if you would take the time to read it.
I don't think he does. In this chapter he just mentioned it in passing, as if everyone who read his words would clearly understand what he meant. Maybe YOU can explain exactly what he meant?
If you can't, that is OK. Maybe someone else can.
Thanks.
I left out a reference, my apologies. If this doesn't answer your question, Marlow, there is no getting through to you.
Psalms 82:1-8 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
If this doesn't answer your question, Marlow, there is no getting through to you.
Actually, it just seems to confuse the issue even more.
Let me try again. If you don't want to answer it, that is fine, maybe one of the other Mormons might want to take a stab at it:
Seven, would you, or any other Mormon, mind explaining what the "great Council of the Gods" was, when it occurred and who participated?
This is an ecumenic Thread. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'd just like someone to clarify this "Great Council of the Gods" thing.
Psalms 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Do not badger. Perhaps another Freeper will answer your question.
C.S. Lewis speaks to this beautifully. It's not some nefarious doctrine, it's about our potential to inherit all that He hath.
“He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose - He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.” C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality (London: The Centenary Press, 1945), P48
It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship.” C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1949), P14-15
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