Posted on 11/03/2007 5:03:12 PM PDT by annalex
an English version of the letters to be found in Lightfoot's "Apostolic Fathers", London, 1907, from which are taken all the quotations of the letters in this article, and to which all citations refer.On the history of the letters, controversies, and codices, see St. Ignatius of Antioch, form which the above attribution note is taken.
In my church we have Altar Call every Sunday. It's called Holy Eucharist. We are all about charisma. That is what Holy Eucharist means, Eu = True, Charism = Anointing. It's just that the charism is not about personalities in our church because we have the True Body of Jesus Christ present on our altar and on our tongues. Talk about your gift of tongues!
I’ve really been trying to focus on Him in the Mass lately. And I’ve been trying to emphasize, in my attention, the part AFTER the priest says “this is My body... this is My blood.” I’m trying to focus on the part about “Christ our passover is sacrificed for us,” the part where he breaks the bread. Being able to partake of it is icing on the cake... the real miracle is in the sacrifice. Glory be to Him.
They were. The churches selected their Elders and Deacons. It was after the Apostolic Era ended that there began to be a push for a hierarchal system.
OK, thanks much for the confirmation. I knew I remembered your saying that before. :)
Alright, that sounds reasonable. When the word "hierarchal" was used I was thinking in terms of something comparable to today (very centralized government for the whole Church), but it sounds like that didn't happen for a while.
My point was just to show that we also have leaders in our churches, a "type" of hierarchy, but we do not have a hierarchal system such as you do today. If the early churches revolved around a single Bishop (respectively), who led and delegated various responsibilities to "staff", then I was thinking that would be more comparable to the way Protestants do it today. However, I am still a little unclear on the role of the laity (if any) in choosing priests and Bishops. As I'm sure you know, in many/most Protestant churches the laity has sole discretion.
After St. Peter we had a short-lived papacy of St. Linus of which we know next to nothing; he was succeeded by St. Clement who was controlling things in Corinth over the heads of the local bishops, so definitely we had a papacy in the person of St. Clement, while the papacy of St. Peter is clear from the scripture.
But did St. Clement and other early Popes exercise power in any way comparable to modern day Popes? I can't imagine a communication system was established enough such that the early Popes could have "ruled" on something, and then word got out to all Christian churches everywhere. I also can't imagine the Orthodox going along with this. :)
Thanks very much. I didn't know that. As you probably saw, I noted to Alex that the author of the testimony spoke approvingly of "Charismatic Catholics", and then Alex said they were "OK" and not part of some fringe Catholic group (like the nuns who want women priests). I doubt the Church would be accepting of the author's charismatic background, so I was thinking the Charismatic Catholics must be something different.
A great example of how the early churches operated is in Acts. The council in Jerusalem reveals that decision making was done as a group and no one person made authoritative decisions on their own, a presbyterian system. IOW, a sacerdotal order is unknown, it was the process of declaring an episcopal ordination that established the distinction between the laity and differing levels of clergy. Until this happened a "bishop" was an elder who had no special authority other than to conduct the service.
The development of "Metropolitans" is what really accelerated the process, until then the presbyters and bishops were viewed as equals. A metropolitan was a bishop who was appointed to preside at a meeting involving a group of churches where there was a theological issue. What happened was the "metropolitans" took their titles home with them and claimed superior authority. Over time the episcopal order was established and a system where the clergy assumed the role of the Holy Spirit of maintaining the people in their relations with God was formalized.
did St. Clement and other early Popes exercise power in any way comparable to modern day Popes?
An ability to reach over the head of the local bishop is what defines papacy. St. Clement exercised that. There are some aspects of papal power that were perhaps acquired later, especially in the West, but the fundamental power of the papacy as a single authority above bishops dates back to the very first popes. some aspects fo papal powere were also lost; for example, the papal states were lost, and with decline of monarchies the ability to influence politics also declined.
Yes, this is the piece I didn't understand. Thanks very much.
Wmfights’ is at best a very tendentious reading of Acts, and it is not consistent with Corinthians, where we see Paul defining a hierarchical system of authority. In Acts, we see St. James presiding, as bishop, over the meeting and dictating the canon regarding the admission of the Gentiles. I don’t understand where Wmfights finds his “no special authority other than to conduct the service”.
OK, but at that council, Peter was there, right? If he truly was the first Pope, then why didn't he preside in accordance with the hierarchal system?
I assume the “he” in the title is the pope?
Correct ! Peters incorrect actions were a part of the problem addressed by the 1st church council. Looking at the totality it looks like James had more authority than Peter and Peter submitted to it
Scripture indicates that there was a joint headship no pope
It didn't exist. :-)
The Apostles were evangelists. The Judaic model didn't begin until after the Apostolic Era. The excuse then was it was needed to protect against "divisions". We see that worked out really well.
The key phrases in Acts 15 is verse 6.
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
Decision making was done as a group, not by an "elite" few.
Apostles did help in the picking of elders of churches, but ultimately the decisions were made at the local level. The Apostles did not consider themselves superior to other Christians.
IPeter 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder...
The striking feature of the early Christian churches was the flexibility in worship, the belief that we are all a part of the priesthood, the equality of believers and most striking the absence of any clergy that manage the relationship between the believers and God. The Christian church had two ordinances the Lord's Supper (a part of the Agape feast) and Baptism, it was not the highly structured service, or organization, we see in most churches today.
Yes, that's all I can see too. Thanks.
He wouldn’t; the local bishop, James, presides. The scriptural support for the leadership of Peter comes from the renaming, the keyes, and the “I pray for you that you strengthen your brethren” at the Last Supper, as well as from “feed my lambs”.
I was quite young the first time I saw him, so I don't remember where it happened. But I do remember being terrified by the sight: that tortured man, thorn-crowned, blood-bathed, forsaken. The sculptor had spared no crease of agony; the painter, no crimson stroke. He was a nightmare in wood.Yet I was strangely drawn to him as well. His open arms welcomed me; his uncovered breast stretched out like a refuge. I wanted to touch him.
Yeah, right. Very funny. That must be the reason you guys run away from crucifixes like devil from holy water.
I grant you that the papacy became stronger under the guidance of the Holy Ghost over the years, and certainly the Church remains conciliar even today, but where do you find “the absence of any clergy that manage the relationship between the believers and God” in the scripture?
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