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Mormon ousted as an apostate
East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

Posted on 09/24/2007 8:16:13 AM PDT by colorcountry

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To: MHGinTN

He did NOT have sex with that woman!

241 posted on 09/28/2007 8:24:12 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: tantiboh
Smith was -sealed- to wives of other men. (And it is fundamental to this discussion to understand the difference between sealing and marriage.) It’s not clear to me as to why; but there were purely dynastic arrangements made in some cases.

It's very ckear to me. When smith was caught screwing the wives of other men, he had to come uo with some excuse. It's really pretty simple.

242 posted on 09/28/2007 8:34:28 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: colorcountry; tantiboh; All
I’m sorry to tell you this, but yes Abraham WAS an adulterer. Hagar was his wife’s handmaiden and NOT his wife. That IS the very definition of adultery.

Hi Color, don’t have time to play, just popping in to the end of this thread and saw that someone should defend God’s ancient servants and prophets whom you call adulterers, in order to meet your definition... There are many, I will just do Abraham, since you bring him up specifically as an “adulterer”

Abraham was God’s prophet, yes PROPHET. He had 3 wives, Sarah, Hagar and Keturah. (BTW, moses’s fist wife, Zipporah, was through Abraham’s third wife, Keturah)

The lord speaking in a dream to the King OF Egypt, says specifically that Abraham was His prophet, and that Abraham would pray for him and bless his house.

Incidentally, verse 12 of this same passage also speaks of Abraham’s father also having multiple wives. Sarah was not only his wife, but also his half sister, he never lied about that to the King.

Gen. 20

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

The following chapter is where Issac is born and Haggar leaves with her son Ishmael.

btw, I will not be able to 'back and forth with you', no time, I can't catch up on my posts for several more days. Someone else will have to do the honors.

For that I apologize... you will have to consider this a "hit and run".

Good day all.

243 posted on 09/28/2007 8:55:09 AM PDT by sevenbak (Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. ~Psalms 85:11)
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To: sevenbak
So are Prophets of God perfect? NO!

Abraham was an adulterer. God gave him a promise of a son, and yet Sarah, who doubted, took matters into her own hands and offered up Hagar as a ‘surrogate’ mother for Abraham’s son. This wasn’t God’s plan at all, and we see what happened as a result....the nation of Islam.

Abraham sinned, he was not perfect. His righteousness was credited to him because of his FAITH and not works. Each man, indeed even prophets, fail and sin. There is no one righteous not ONE. Even Abraham, but his faith MADE him righteous.

The New Testament pays great tribute to Abraham, the man of faith. His name appears 30 times in the gospels, 8 times in Acts (5 in one sermon), and 32 times in the epistles. When a New Testament writer wanted to teach a lesson on the nature of or importance of faith, Abraham was the model. When Paul taught about the righteousness which exists through faith, Abraham was the model (Rom. 4). When Paul taught that all people became the heirs of God’s promises through faith, Abraham was the foundation of the lessons (Gal. 3). In Hebrews’ roll call of the people of faith, one section pays tribute to Abraham’s sojourning and another to his offering of Isaac (Heb. 11). When James taught that obedient works were the natural expression of a living faith, Abraham’s faith was a primary evidence (Jas. 2).

When the Christian properly understands Abraham’s faith which was reckoned for righteousness, he will understand the faith which will allow him to be righteous before God.

244 posted on 09/28/2007 9:04:21 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: colorcountry
OK, so much for the hit and run. I will take the time.

Keep reading, chapter 21:

17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. I will make him a great nation.

It might seem politically correct for you to judge the actions of one nation born out of the seed of Abraham, but you are not in a position to play God. The Muslims didn't come into existence until the 5th or 6th century after Christ. The children of Abraham through Ishmael are indeed a great nation, and was part of his plan.

The lord sent his angel to help and support Hagar. This is not the things of man.

Also, in Chapter 16, the angel of the Lord tells Hagar to return to Sarai and Abraham after Sarai chases her off, and the angel tells her she is with child, and will bear a son and call him Ishmael.

Pretty amazing happenings from angels and God to the adulterer mistress and seed of an adulterer!!!

Further, in Chapter 17 of Genises, the Lord Himself promises Abraham that Ishmael would begat 12 prices, and would become a great nation.

Gen. 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

The promises to Abraham was that the whole earth would be blessed with his posterity, not just the chosen people through Issac. The fact that multiple wives were a factor in making this happen does not diminish my respect for the prophets of old. I'm truly sorry that it does to you.

The fact cannot be ignored that the nations of the earth were peopled through Abraham, Issac and Jacob, as well as Ishmael and Abraham's other seed, all using multiple wives to make it happen.

Now, I really must go. Perhaps another time!

245 posted on 09/28/2007 9:30:39 AM PDT by sevenbak (Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. ~Psalms 85:11)
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To: sevenbak

You are great at fudging facts.

Sarah was DEAD when Abraham married Keturah.

You just ignore that silly little truth in order to spread your misinformation.

It was Sarah’s idea to have her maiden sleep with Abraham to produce and heir. Nowhere does it say it was from God.

Sarah was trying to ‘help’ God, she had lost faith that she would ever conceive. And we all know what has come of that ‘help’.


246 posted on 09/28/2007 9:47:07 AM PDT by JRochelle ( Soros is evil.)
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To: sevenbak

Thanks for your post.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham sinned with Hagar. Technically speaking however, the Ten Commandments had not been issued at the time.

What does that have to do with the fornicating, lust and power driven, Joseph Smith.

On another topic, one ex-LDS poster on another board discussing this very issue, had this to say:

“I’d like to throw in a comment on “discovering the history.” It’s not that there’s bad history. As was pointed out, every religion has bad history. What hurts and is demeaning is to discover that your religion, the people you trusted to “do the thinking for you” have lied to you. It is deeply personal and, frankly, feels terrible. You feel violated in the same way you would if you were molested. These people took advantage of your confidence and used you— used your time, your money, your power to bolster themselves. It is quite obvious the church has no integrity, no commitment to the principles that Jesus Christ taught. There is no humility, no confession of wrongdoing, EVER. Only speaking for myself, I felt I had to choose between a life of deception for the Church or a life of integrity. I chose the latter and praise God every day that I was lead out of Mormonism by freely reading the Bible. Pretend you are a sandal-wearing Jew, I thought, and that you didn’t know why Jesus was so popular. What does this guy have to say? I started with Matthew and by the end of Mark I realized that Jesus certainly wasn’t describing Mormonism. In fact, Mormonism is close to the Old Testament religion Jesus was doing away with. Mormonism “restores” the old spirit-crushing, unloving and cruel Old Testament Judaism that Jesus despised. “

http://www.topix.com/religion/latter-day-saints/2007/09/why-they-leave/


247 posted on 09/28/2007 9:59:36 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: tantiboh

You are presumptuous. You cannot read my heart and determine when and where I fall short of God’s example, tantiboth. You can not see as He does.

I find it is much easier to follow simply what Jesus taught.

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: / But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”


248 posted on 09/28/2007 10:05:06 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife
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To: Utah Girl
Yes, he did, after the Lord gave him permission through Nathan, the prophet at that time to have multiple wives.

Uh... where is THIS found?

249 posted on 09/28/2007 10:06:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: tantiboh
The question then becomes, if there is no sexual intimacy in the relationship, is it adultery?

The answer is:

Matthew 5:27-28
27. "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.'
28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

250 posted on 09/28/2007 10:08:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
But his wife gave him permission...
 
You remember her?
 
 
 
Genesis 12
 
 1.  The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
 2.  "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
 3.  I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
 4.  So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran.
 5.  He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
 6.  Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.
 7.  The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring  I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
 8.  From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.
 9.  Then Abram set out and continued toward the Negev.
 10.  Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe.
 11.  As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are.
 12.  When the Egyptians see you, they will say, `This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live.
 13.  Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."
 14.  When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman.
 15.  And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace.
 16.  He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.
 17.  But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai.

 18.  So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?
 19.  Why did you say, `She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!"
 20.  Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.
 
 
Sounds like he pimped his wife out!


251 posted on 09/28/2007 10:13:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: sevenbak
He had 3 wives, Sarah, Hagar and Keturah.

Sorry; not a wife but Sari's servant.

252 posted on 09/28/2007 10:15:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: sevenbak
Genesis 20:5
Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands have I done this.

Dang!!!

He did it AGAIN!!!

253 posted on 09/28/2007 10:17:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
The New Testament pays great tribute to Abraham, the man of faith.

But...

But - what about his WORKS???

Don't THEY count for anything??

--MormonDude(Workin' my way back to you, Babe)

254 posted on 09/28/2007 10:19:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
Technically speaking however, the Ten Commandments had not been issued at the time.

True, but SIN was still in the land!

 


NIV Genesis 4:7
  If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
 

NIV Genesis 13:13
  Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
 

NIV Genesis 15:16
   In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."
 

NIV Genesis 18:20-21
 20.  Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
 21.  that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
 

NIV Genesis 20:6
   Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
 

NIV Genesis 31:36
   Jacob was angry and took Laban to task. "What is my crime?" he asked Laban. "What sin have I committed that you hunt me down?
 

NIV Genesis 39:8-9
 8.  But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care.
 9.  No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?"
 

NIV Genesis 42:22
   Reuben replied, "Didn't I tell you not to sin against the boy? But you wouldn't listen! Now we must give an accounting for his blood."
 

NIV Genesis 50:17
   `This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your brothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.' Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father." When their message came to him, Joseph wept.
 

NIV Exodus 9:27
   Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong.
 

NIV Exodus 9:34
   When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.
 
 

NIV Exodus 10:16-17
 16.  Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you.
 17.  Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me."
 

NIV Exodus 20:1
   And God spoke all these words:

255 posted on 09/28/2007 10:27:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

Great minds...


256 posted on 09/28/2007 10:28:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Thanks, Elsie!


257 posted on 09/28/2007 10:31:42 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife
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To: Elsie; sevenbak

Correct. He sinned.

I don’t understand why sevenbak is so adamant about Abraham not sinning. Mormons defend the “right” of their Prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to be sinful....don’t they?

Don’t we hear from them over, and over again that their Prophets are ‘only’ men and sometimes speak as men with fallen ideas and lusts? Aren’t we told that when Brigham Young spoke the Adam/God doctrine that he was just espousing erroneous beliefs.

So are Prophets fallible as men, or not? not? What say ye seven?


258 posted on 09/28/2007 10:35:29 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: colorcountry; sevenbak

It has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham sinned with Hagar.

Technically speaking however, the Ten Commandments had not been issued at the time.

FOTFLMHO

Lets just ignore about dispensations!

Unbelievable Hillary could take lesson....


259 posted on 09/28/2007 11:16:29 AM PDT by restornu (No one is perfect but you can always strive to do the right thing! Press Forward Mitt!)
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To: tantiboh

The question then becomes, if there is no sexual intimacy in the relationship, is it adultery?
The answer is:

Matthew 5:27-28
27. “You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’
28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

****

isn’t this again speculation?


260 posted on 09/28/2007 11:18:44 AM PDT by restornu (No one is perfect but you can always strive to do the right thing! Press Forward Mitt!)
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