Posted on 09/13/2007 1:42:54 PM PDT by NYer
thanks... bookmark to read again later.
Once again, my thanks.
You are an inspiration.
I get to go to a speech (all day event really) where Dr. Hahn and T. Tomeo are the guests. I am really looking forward to it. They are two amazingly knowledgeable Catholics.
Enjoy it! And let us know all about it when you return.
Ping!
Scott Hahn’s The Lamb's Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
Foreword by Fr. Benedict Groeschel.
Part One - The Gift of the Mass
Hahn begins by describing the first mass he ever attended.
"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."
"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."
I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.
Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.
As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."
Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"
I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!
BTTT!
You again? ~chuckle~ You're a glutton for punishment aren't you[?].
That's cool, at least you have some moxie....even if it is misguided.
Now, on to correcting your quote...
"Do you know when the real reformation came? The real reformation came in the Upper Room, when Jesus instituted the Eucharist....haha, you guys and your fancy pants words....and when he established the Catholic Church...LOL, what?...The true reformation wiped away the weak, ineffective Old Testament sacrifices.
Woe there. Jesus' shedding of his blood and death on the cross wiped away Old Testament sacrifice [meant to cover over sin]. Try not to undermine Jesus' decision to die for you.
"Would it do away with sacrifices altogether? No. The true reformation would initiate a new sacrifice, which has intrinsic power to cleanse our consciences."
Well, allot of flowery language but relatively empty.
The only sacrifice that remains is yours...the sacrificing of your life to God and submission to His purpose.
Really not that deep, but I guess if you add allot of jargon and mysticism to it then it can seem like this major process. It is basically just the starting point.
It seems as if the author is saying that there were no animal sacrifices before Sinai...but there were:
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 8:20 And Noah built an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Maybe I'm wrong about his premise, but animal sacrifice had been a means of worshiping God for quite a while.
Interesting. I a question about this section:
“I read this passage a hundred times before the obvious meaning hit me. Jesus Christ is a priest in heaven, ministering now in the sanctuary; and, as our High priest, he’s continually offering. What, though, is he offering? He’s not bleeding and dying and suffering any more. He’s not killing any animals—but he’s continually offering the once and for all sacrifice which is himself. It’s a continual sacrifice, a perpetual offering. This mystery is exactly what the Catholic Church has always taught about the meaning of the Mass.”
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is continually offering? I’m not aware of any, but the One Offering of His blood He made on Sunday after His resurrection when He ascended to heaven.
“Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is continually offering?”
It doesn’t. It says after He offered one sacrifice He sat down at the right hand of God.
Hbr 1:3, “Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Hebr 10:11-14, “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
I you read the article you would see that the author answers that question.
I agree with you.shalom b'shem Yah'shuaYah'shua sacrificed himself as the Pesach Lamb once for all.
“I agree with you.”
Great, then I get to go to bed early. Thank you.
Hebrews 10
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Christians have no need of additional sacrifice, nor can they benefit from it in any way. There are no sacrificing priests in true Christianity.
Outstanding response.
But giv’em a little bit of time to figure out which scriptures to mangle and I am sure they’ll have some lame rebuttal affirming the author’s incompetent assertion regarding animal sacrifice.
Very first animal sacrifice in scripture: [Genesis 3:21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
What ever inhabited those skins prior to this event indeed had their lives sacrificed so Adam and Eve could have a "covering for their sin".....so to speak.
“I[f] you read the article you would see that the author answers that question.”
That’s the point of the question. I read the article and didn’t see proof of this assertion, that Jesus is offering Himself continually before God. I even scanned for the word “sacrifice” and did not see that associated with the word continually. Rather, as the other posters pointed out, His one time sacrifice and offering was contrasted with the continual offerings of the OT priesthood.
A follow up question is, why would Jesus NEED to offer His sacrifice continually before God? With one sacrifice, He paid for the sins of all mankind. In a parallel with the Old Testament wavesheaf offering during the days of Unleavened bread, He offered Himself on Sunday during the days of Unleavened Bread. When He appeared before Mary Magdalene, He said, “Do not touch (or hinder) me, for I ascend to Your God and my God”. He ascended to heaven and then appeared again later that day to the disciples.
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